IMI 9mm UZI box and load variations


#1

I just received some 9mm UZI boxes with the label decorated to look like a wooden crate. I was surprised to find four distinct variations.

1. What I think of as the “normal” carbine round with a black tip 115gr bullet and a case headstamped “IMI 9mm CARB”. The load type iss identified as No. 9-23A/1. There is no “LOT NO.” printed on the back and the address is:

Manufactured in Israel by
TAAS-Israel Industries Ltd.
P.O.B. 1044 Rammat-Hasharon

2. This is identified as a High Velocity carbine round with a 115gr reddish brown bullet and a case headstamped “9MM TZZ 86”. The load # on the back is also 9-23A/1 but “LOT NO.” is printed at the bottom of the back of the box and stamped after is “183-86”. The address on the back is:

MANUFACTURED IN ISRAEL BY
ISRAEL MILITARY INDUSTRIES
P.O.B. 1044
RAMAT HASHARON

3. This box is identical to box 2. (including the address) except the end identifies the load as the 9mm CARBINE +P. Like the bullets in box 2, the bullets have a reddish brown tip. The headstamp on these rounds is “9MM TZZ 87” and the Lot # stamped on the bock of the box is 118-87.

4. The final box is also like 2. above except the product number on the back is 9-S32A and the end flap identifies the load 9mm Low Velocity. The cartridges are loaded with 158gr blue tip bullets and the headstamp is “IMI 9mm CARB”. The lot number stamped on the back is 149-88 which probably means the ammunition was produced in 1988.

I have a couple of questions.

First, what was the date when the address changed? The black tip rounds in box 1 above have a nickel primer which I associate with pre-1988 black tip carbine loads. The other three boxes have rounds with brass primers so perhaps the primer change occurred pre-86. The style of the black tip carbine box compared to the '86 brown tip carbine box would support this.

Second, what was the reason for changing the 115gr Carbine ball from black tip to brown. I have heard that it was to prevent confusion with a black tip AP round. I doubt this because I have a UZI box with black tip 115gr blts and British contract headstamps (probably production overrun) “IMI L18A1 (+) 98” which was over 10 years after the reddish brown tips were introduced. Was it perhaps that the reddish brown tips identified the “HV” or “+P” higher velocity carbine loads. I have black tip loads with brass primers which could be later than the introduction of the reddish-brown tips, but no boxes to date them. Does anyone have black tip Carbine loads that date from after 1987?

The L18A1 box had past on labels on the end flap “9mm LUGER +P 115GR.FULL METAL JACKET” but the product on the back is"No. 9-18B" so was intended for some other load. I have no idea what this product number represents?

Just as a matter of interest, I also have a black tip load headstamped “IMI 9mm-LUGER+P”. I believe John Moss has the box that may date it.

Cheers,
Lew


#2

I have also heard that the change from black to red tips was to avoid confusion with the US designation of black to mean AP. As to the address change, there really is no change there. The spellings of Ramat, and the use of TA’AS don’t really mean anything beyond different people designing the boxes. TA’AS is nothing but the Hebrew abbreviation for IMI.


#3

Jon, I recognize the address is the same place since the PO box number was the same, but I wasn’t clear. I meant the format of the address. Sorry for being unclear. I have checked my other commercial IMI boxes and they all show the later address style, but the earliest date from 1984. I don’t have any earlier boxes and was hoping that someone had a dated box that showed the earlier style address.

Any help out there???

Cheers,
Lew


#4

Lew - there are many more than simply four of these boxes, if you count all variations. For example, of your boxes, I only have one in the “wood grain” format, and yet I have five “wood-grain” boxes in my own collection. All have the date in the lot number of the back of the box (example:110-86) and all of mine are from 86 or 88, except one. I have one box with the early style address, as you call it, with the TAAS-Isreal Indutries Ltd usage. It has a lot number inside one of the end flaps that for me, has no clue to the date (00168/D). I doubt the 168 has any date reference, as it is way too early for this box style.

I also have the following, all with the new-style address: 115 grain FMJ but no mention of “9 x 19” on the box; 115 JHP Carbine +P; 124 FMJ-FN (Very vlat meplat); and then the 1158 FMJ Low Velocity, the same as yours.

I suspect that there are more variations that your collection and mine put together.

I will scan these end labels, and send you the picture, which you may post here or not as you please.

Unfortunately, I have no IMI catalogs or ammunition data sheets of any kind from before about 2001, so my one cartridge box is all I have that uses the TAAS form of IMI.


#5

John,
My early box had a number inside the end flap “00104/E”. Based on the later lot number formats I am sure the D and E are year codes, but I have no idea what they represent. Perhaps one of our experts here can help! I do have a Sampson Ultra Dicut box with "00169/A that I acquired in 2002 so that is one mark in the sand to figure out the letter codes.

I also have other UZI boxes and the intent here was not to picture them all, but sort out the change in the format of the address and the black vs reddish brown bullet tip questions.

It would also be nice if someone had some insight into the product numbers in 9mm on the back of the boxes. As far as I can tell there are the following:

9-18B: 9mm Luger (Parabellum) 90gr JHP
9-23A: 9mm (Parabellum) 115gr FMJ
9-23A/1: 9mm 115gr FMJ Carbine
9-23A-T 9mm Carbine FMJ Tracer also 9mm Luger (Parabellum) FMJ Tracer
9-P23B/1 9mm 115gr Carbine +P JHP
9-S32A 9mm 158gr Subsonic

I think you have at least one more load which likely have a different product number on the back:

9mm 124gr Luger (Parabellum) FMJ-FN

The numbers above come off of both the UZI and the blue Sampson boxes.

As I looked deeper, I found boxes with lot numbers on the back back to '82.

Cheers,
Lew


#6

Lew. They stopped using those product numbers on later boxes, as far as I can tell. Also, they don’t coincide with anything in any of the IMI Israel price sheets, or catalogs, civilian or military, that I have, although they may simply be the “catalog” number from earlier years than any of my literature, most which is 21st Century.

I have compiled a handwitten list of the index numbers used in all the literature I have, military and civilian. I have chronicled 50 different numbers for 9 mm Para, all seemingly different loads, although in some cases I can’t tell how from the scant information provided. My list is in rough, handwitten form, not suitable for publication (I almost wrote suitable for framing - my mind wanders these days, although it never seems to go anywhere important).

If there is demand I would type this onto the Forum in some sensible order, but I will not do it unless at least five people want it. It will be a long, long chore, and I am trying to get my disaster of a collection room presentable for an expected Australian visitor in the next few days. The list is only 9 mm. The number of different loadings in all calibers that they have made in the last ten or twelve years is staggering. I have never seen a time on the U.S. Market when more than a small fraction of the 9 mm loads was available at any given time, but then, some of them are LE loads and some are military.


#7

Lew and John, I also have compiled a list of the different 9 mm cartridges found in pre-1996 literature only. The information is presented in an Excel table with the following descriptions: product code, designation, bullet weight, tip color, case finish, muzzle velocity, barrel length, pressure, date, ammunition line (IMI, Samson, Samson Ultra, and Uzi), and manufacturer designation. When finished, I think I may be able to paste the information here as an image.

In the meantime, I can also add the following information regarding IMI’s history between 1980 and 1996 in relation to 9 mm Parabellum commercial ammunition:

The official name of “IMI” between 1980 and 1990 was “Israel Military Industries of the Ministry of Defense of the State of Israel”. An abbreviated form was used in boxes and catalogs that reads “Israel Military Industries”.

The trademark “I.M.I. and design” was used in connection with ammunition as early as 1980.

This “I.M.I. and design” trademark can be found in “Eagle” brand boxes imported by Magnum Research, Inc., St. Anthony, Minnesota. This brand was not owned by IMI but by MRI, and was first used on April 8, 1982; however, this trademark application was abandoned on November 14, 1983. Also, the ammunition made for this company was the first one to show the “9-“ product codes (e.g., 9-23A; 9-23A/1).

In 1984 IMI applied for the “Samson” ammunition trademark and claimed use since June 11, 1983. This new brand was imported and distributed by Action Ammo Ltd., Philadelphia, PA, a company incorporated on November 23, 1983. On the other hand, its affiliate company named Action Arms Ltd. imported the full line of Uzi submachine guns, carbines and pistols. This ammunition brand was first advertised by Action Ammo Ltd. early in 1984 and continued with the use of “9-“ style product codes.

In 1986 IMI applied for the “Uzi” trademark for ammunition and claimed use since August 8, 1985. It was also imported and distributed by Action Ammo Ltd., and first advertised late on 1986. It also continued with the “9-“ style codes.

In 1988 Accurate Arms Company of McEwen, TN announced they were importing IMI bullets and primed and unprimed cases.

The last Action Ammo Ltd. brochure was published in 1989 and from this date no mention of this company was made anymore in relation to IMI products (except for some directories that were likely not updated).

As of November 1, 1990 IMI ceased to be a department of the Israeli Ministry of Defense and changed its status to a government company fully owned by the Government of the State of Israel. Its designation changed to Israel Military Industries Ltd. (IMI).

After this designation change, a new product code numbering system was adopted in the style of “10-“ and “30-“ (e.g., 10-771; 30-771). Actually, this wasn’t new but a continuation/modification of the codes used for military products since the early 1980’s (e.g., 10-111; 10-112).

In 1991 IMI applied for yet another ammunition trademark: “Samson Ultra”. It was first used on May 1991.

On June 12, 1992 its designation changed to TAAS-Israel Industries Ltd. (Note: a Samson catalog edited on December 1993 still shows the earlier designation).

By 1995 the product code numbering system was again changed and added four digits at the end of the previous code style (e.g., 10-771-9997; 30-771-9997).

In 1995 Hansen Cartridge Company imported IMI’s 9 mm Carbine 115gr FMJ (black tip) ammunition in specially labeled boxes. Product code used was HCC9G.

On January 22, 1996, TAAS-Israel Industries Ltd. changed its name to Israel Military Industries Ltd.

I hope this information could be helpful to date some of the products made by this company. Any corrections and additions are more than welcome.

Regards,

Fede


#8

Thanks Fede!!!

John Moss had nothing to add to the product codes I posted above, but he did go through his later material and came up the with following product codes. A number of items I wold love to have like the blanks.

Thanks John for the great work!

Cheers,
Lew

[quote]ISRAELI PRODUCT CODES FOR 9 MM PARABELLUM. (Note: These are the codes that post-date those found on the early boxes. The list does not include the early codes, as no primary sources were found for them other than on a few box labels.

All cartridges shown are 9 MM Parabellum (Luger, 9 x 19, NATO, etc.).

Bullet Type and Weight Early Code Code with suffix Later Code

Commercial Loads:

Ball, NATO Non-Toxic 10-133-A
(No bullet weight or use-classification given)

115 gr. FMJ (Ultra Line) 10-771

112 Gr. FMJ +P 10-771-A
(also shown for “9x19 Carbine FMJ)

115 gr. JHP 10-772 ` 10-772-A; 10-772-B

Proof Load – unspecified 10-774 10-774-9997

Proof Load – SAAMI 10-774-A

Proof Load – CIP 10-774-B

124 Gr. FMJ Low Toxix 10-775 10-775-A

124 Gr. FMJ 10-777 10-777-A 10-777-9997

115 Gr. JHP +P 10-778 10-778-A

115 Gr. FMJ 10-779 10-779-A 10-779-9997

147 Gr. JHP 30-762 30-762-A

158 Gr. FMJ Low Velocity 30-771 30-771-A
(Ultra Line)

124 Gr. FMJ-FN 30-774-A

124 Gr. Lead RN 30-775 30-775-A

95 Gr. JSP 30-800 30-800-A 30-800-9997

115 Gr. JSP 30-801 30-801-A 30-801-9997

124 Gr. JSP 30-802 30-802-A 30-802-9997

115 Gr. FMJ Match 30-803 30-803-A 30-803-9997
(Ultra Line)

95 Gr. JSP FP 30-805 30-805-A 30-805-9997

115 Gr. CMJ (Low Toxic) 30-806 30-806-A

87 Gr. Frangible 30-809 30-809-A 30-809-9997
(Ultra Line)

115 Gr. DICUT 30-815 30-815-A 30-815-9997

123 Gr. JHP DICUT 30-816 30-816-A 30-816-9997

147 JHP DICUT ™ 30-817 30-817-B 30-817-9997
(Ultra Line)

115 Gr. EX-STAR ™ 30-819 30-819-A 30-819-9997
(Ultra Line)

124 Gr. EX-STAR ™ 30-820 30-820-A 30-820-9997
(Ultra Line)
147 Gr. FMJ 30-821-A

115 Gr. HSP-FN +P EX-STAR 30-860-A

115 Gr. JHP DICUT 30-861-A

Law Enforcement Loads

Less than lethal projectile launcher 10-124-A
(Also shown as Index Number for Grenade Launching Blank)

95 Gr. JSP FN Expandable 30-805-A

85 Gr. Frangible 30-809-A

85 Gr. Penetrator 30-818-A

115 Gr. HSP-FN EX-STAR 30-819-B

95 Gr. Training Round for 7J-EX CMJ 30-831-A

100 Gr. Reduced Hazard Frangible 30-862-A

Military Loads

115 Gr. SMG Load 10-111 10-111-A STANAG 4090

115 Gr. Carbine Tracer 10-112

124 Gr. Carbine Subsonic 10-113

115 Gr. Improved Ball 10-119

Ball, no other specs shown 10-120

115 Gr. For Pistol 10-122 10-112-A

115 Gr. Pistol High
Velocity-See also 10-126) 10-123

158 Gr,. Subsonic 10-125 10-125-A

115 Gr. High Velocity 10-126

Carbine, High (? – nothing
after “High” and no other
specs) 10-127

124 Gr. NATO Ball M882 10-128 10-128-B STANAG 3090

Dummy M917 10-131 10-131-A

123 Gr.Test, High
Pressure M905 10-132

Blank (Also commercial) 10-141 10-141-A 10-141-9997

Note: This list was compiled from many different IMI Sources, including catalogs and price lists, most undated. In each case, all information given is recounted here. Where there was little or missing information, an attempt was made to note this. Regardless, all data given here was all that was available from the source material.

Compiled by John Moss (Total document: Two pages)
[/quote]


#9

John and Lew, thank you very much for this list, the variety of 9mm loads made by IMI is vast. I have compared this information with my own and have compiled a list of known product codes offered in publications dated between 1982 and 2002. It includes 150 different descriptions (some with slight variations) and 113 different products codes.

The list is too big to be posted here but I’ll send a copy to anyone interested. Also, if anyone have copies of catalogs by IMI, Samson, Action Ammo, Eagle (MRI), Hansen, or any other company that has offered their products, please let me know.


#10

Gentlemen,

what is muzzle velocity of 115gr “Carbine” or “SMG” loads from standard Uzi barrel?

also, were these bullet standard FMJ ball with lead core, or there were some specific design changes (i.e. thicker jacket, like in Swedish M/39B)?

thanks


#11

I never ran any from an UZI, but the IMI black-tip CARB stamped 115gr stuff pictured above chronographed faster than Hirtenberger L7A1, Remington 115gr +p+ JHP, Winchester 127gr +p+ SXT, and Federal 9BPLE out of my Glock 19.

I’ll have to dig up the notebook but it was one of the speed queens that day; I recall the Samson black-tip 115gr ‘+p’ stamped stuff as being very slow.

The CARB stuff also ruled the roost in a penetration test I did for a local glass company (laminated polycarb booth windows, again from standard length pistol barrels). I dont have any of the stuff left over (about 1999 I think) but I did some crude sections and found nothing unusual about the jacket thickness from the rounds out of the box I was using that day.