IMI 9x19mm blue tip questions


#1

IMI 9x19mm 158 gr. FMJ with blue tip in the “UZI” branded box. “reduced velocity”? or “sub-sonic”? Or, are they one in the same?

Why “carb” in the headstamp, or why specificly is this load for the UZI carbine?

Is this still “shooter” ammunition or has it become collectable yet?

Trying to help a friend decide to shoot it or sell it…

AKMS


#2

Whenever this stuff appears on Gunbroker for sale it seems to command higher prices than other 9mm subsonic ammo. Current stuff from Magtech, Fiocchi, and other typical commercial stuff sometimes only brings half as much per box as the “UZI” IMI brand stuff. In part because it has the cute blue tip, in part because of Uzi lore, and partly because it has a good reputation. It’s not terribly rare or collectible in most cases.


#3

Depending on the era IMI/Samson/Action Ammo catalogs list the 158 gr. loading as “Subsonic” or “Low Velocity”. The 115 gr. “Carbine” loading was offered as a loading for the Uzi semi-automatic carbine with a 10" barrel. According to Action Arms/Action Ammo it was the “Official Uzi Ammo”.


#4

By the way, does anyone has in his collection the two different proof rounds with nickeled case made for pistols and carbines?


#5

I have one type, with a tinned case, GM bullet, brass primer, and an HPT TZZ 89 headstamp.


#6

Jonny, thanks. Do you know if this is a pistol or a carbine proof round? I’m asking because IMI in the early 80’s was offering both loading only differentiated by a slightly different powder charge. How much does it weight?

Edit: With that headstamp I think it is safe to say that is not a carbine load.


#7

There are two different loads with the light blue tips. The 158FMJ is designed for carbines/subguns and the 124FMJ with the bullet cannilure is for pistols.


#8

Leon - is there any documentation to show that the heavy bullet was made for submachine guns and the lighter 124 grain bullet for pistols? It is not unusual for heavy-bullet loads to be used in pistols equipped with silencers, as the short barrel, with subsonic velocities, can use the heavier bullet to make up for fight-stopping limitions with slow-moving, lighter-weight bullets.

In fact, I have in my collection three slightly different boxes of the 25-round Israelie military type, although all with English language labels (black print on white labels), all three of which say “9mm Ball Carbine 124 gr., Subsonic.” Two of the three boxes, both Lot No. 113-05 (T Z 85) but a different label printing, ) have the cannelure on the bullet despite being shown as “Ball Carbine.” I have no boxes of this type for the 158 grain loading, although I have one "UZI brand box and two slightly different Samson boxes, that show only “9 mm Low Velocity 158 GR. F.M.J.” with no advice anywhere on the boxes that the round is not for pistols (or for that matter, that it is not for SMGs or UZI Carbines). However, the headstamp is the “9mm CARB” marking.

That would tend to suggest that both bullet weights were intended for the Carbine.

Just wondered, as I don’t recall seeing any IMI literature differentiating the weapons intended to be used with the two different bullet weights, and would love to have it for my library.

Fede - to my knowledge, the Carbine, which for legal purposes usually has a 16" barrel, (although I think some made in semi-auto only for police had a 10" barrel), is primarily a commercial civilian firearm. I suspect the proof load described by Johnny was for the Uzi Submachine gun, although I have no precise documentation to that effect. Unfortunately, I have no
Israeli proof-load box of any description.


#9

John, you are right, I confused the 10" barrel used to test the ammunition with the actual 16" barrel of the legal carbine.

According to one of their catalogs the carbine proof load should weight 12.01 g (185.34 gr) and the pistol proof load 12.03 g (185.65 gr). These loads are differentiated only by 0.02 g (0.30865 gr) in their powder charges but I wonder if this could be determined by weighing actual specimens. Not likely.


#10

FWIW, I submitted both the Samson and UZI boxed IMI 158gr blue-tip loads to David DiFabio back when he ran AmmoLab.

I don’t recall the numbers, or which test method he used…but both the CARB stamped 158s and the CARB stamped 115 (black-tip, UZI boxed) were listed as “very high pressure”, as in safest in open-bolts like the UZI.

The IMI/Samson 115gr +p (blue/white box) had a black tip, but was true +p (not SMG or +p+) and had correspondingly lower MVs on my chrony.

Someone much more knowledgeable than myself once told me that a very heavy crimp can contribute to higher peak chamber pressures…I never handload cartridges to max/high pressures so I never got to try it but it makes some sense.


#11

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Leon - is there any documentation to show that the heavy bullet was made for submachine guns and the lighter 124 grain bullet for pistols? It is not unusual for heavy-bullet loads to be used in pistols equipped with silencers, as the short barrel, with subsonic velocities, can use the heavier bullet to make up for fight-stopping limitions with slow-moving, lighter-weight bullets.

In fact, I have in my collection three slightly different boxes of the 25-round Israelie military type, although all with English language labels (black print on white labels), all three of which say “9mm Ball Carbine 124 gr., Subsonic.” Two of the three boxes, both Lot No. 113-05 (T Z 85) but a different label printing, ) have the cannelure on the bullet despite being shown as “Ball Carbine.” I have no boxes of this type for the 158 grain loading, although I have one "UZI brand box and two slightly different Samson boxes, that show only “9 mm Low Velocity 158 GR. F.M.J.” with no advice anywhere on the boxes that the round is not for pistols (or for that matter, that it is not for SMGs or UZI Carbines). However, the headstamp is the “9mm CARB” marking.

That would tend to suggest that both bullet weights were intended for the Carbine.

Just wondered, as I don’t recall seeing any IMI literature differentiating the weapons intended to be used with the two different bullet weights, and would love to have it for my library.

Fede - to my knowledge, the Carbine, which for legal purposes usually has a 16" barrel, (although I think some made in semi-auto only for police had a 10" barrel), is primarily a commercial civilian firearm. I suspect the proof load described by Johnny was for the Uzi Submachine gun, although I have no precise documentation to that effect. Unfortunately, I have no
Israeli proof-load box of any description.[/quote]

John, I don’t remember where, when, how or why that I have it stuck in my mind the the 124’s were for pistols and the 158’s were for SMG/carbines. And of course you are 100% right about the little 24rnd boxes marked BALL CARBINE 124GR SUBSONIC as I have a photo of that exact box in my photo collection. I will endeavor to purge the faulty info out of my data banks so I will not make that mistake again.