Info on Cuban 7.62x39


#1

Is there any information available on Cuban made 7.62x39? In particular head stamps, case materials, loads, boxes and Cuban designations. Any other info is welcome.


#2

EOD–I have either in my collection or in my notes the following:

13 80 New Unprimed Empty CWS
13 80 Dummy CWS (This may not be factory)
13 81 Ball CWS
13 82 Ball CWS
13 83 Ball CWS
13 84 Ball CWS
13 84 Dummy with 4 Flutes on Case CWS
13 85 Ball CWS
13 87 Ball CWS
13 88 Ball CWS

PMV 77 Ball Lac. Steel
PMV 78 Ball Lac. Steel

72 (at 6h) Ball Brass Black Primer with Red PA
74 (at 6h) Ball Brass Black Primer with Red PA


#3

Ron, that’s good info, thanks a lot!

I have a fired un head stamped brass (edited) case with black primer.

Wish I had the dummy and the PMV.

Anyone else?


#4

I have:
ball, no h/s, cws cs, wine-red seals
PMV 78, fired cws cs
PMV 79, fired cws cs, reddish pr seal
ball, brs cs, black pr, red pr seal; 72
case-draw stage, cws, blind pr pocket; 13 81
ball, cws cs, purple neck seal, read pr seal; 13 88

Let me know if you want pics of any.


#5

Jon,
Thanks a lot!

These woulde be interesting to see:
ball, no h/s, cws cs, wine-red seals
PMV 78, fired cws cs
PMV 79, fired cws cs, reddish pr seal

What does the “brs” mean here: ball, brs cs, black pr, red pr seal; 72


#6

brs = brass
I’ll take some pics tonight.


#7

As promised, here are the pics:



#8

A few more to make the list complete, bold text in my collection, regular text reported to me.

no headstamp fired brass case, plack Berdan primer / red p.a. (one primer hole by the way)

6’ headstamp
69 fired brass case
70 brass case ball, plack Berdan primer / red p.a.
70 brass case blank
71 brass case ball, plack Berdan primer / red p.a.
73 fired brass case, plack Berdan primer / red p.a. again, one primer hole
edit one forgotten:
75 brass case ball

12’ and 6’ headstamp
PMV 79 cws fired case now with 2 primer holes
13 83 cws case blank
13 84 cws case blank
13 86 cws fired case

Now we have a few headstamps, case materials and loads listed as requested. From the black primers, one hole Berdan priming and the way dummy flutes are applied we can believe that Cuba received Czechoslovak technology.
Any more facts, how about boxes and designations?!


#9

The only packaging and designations I know of are from when Cuban cartridges were given/smuggled to communist rebels in El Salvador back in the 1980’s. Reportedly the ammunition was packed loose into burlap grain sacks marked “food aid”!

I’ve also seen North Korean 7.62x39mm with black primers. Do we assume that there is a Czech. connection there as well? Maybe just Czech. supplied the primers?

AKMS


#10

John thanks a lot for the images! Hans and AKMS thanks for the additional information!

Has anybody actually seen these Cuban blanks?
Does anybody know what PMV stands for?


#11

AKMS,
that is interesting news. Of course before I gave my lightweight opinion I would have liked to see. Black primers may look different from black primers. But in the case of los Cubanos we have 2 more clues, one is one flash hole Berdan priming - who did that after WWII else than Czechoslovak producers - and the other is the way the flutes on the dummy cases are applied. That all smells like houskov


#12

[quote=“EOD”]John thanks a lot for the images! Hans and AKMS thanks for the additional information!

Has anybody actually seen these Cuban blanks?
Does anybody know what PMV stands for?[/quote]

I do not have absolute confirmation but when I was last in Cuba I asked around to the locales and no one really knew. One old timer seemed to think it meant (forgive the spelling if wrong as a Canadian my Spanish is not up to par and I am guessing by the words): Pirotechna Militar Victoria de Las Tunas. The latter part is a city which the guy said produced ammunition but this is only third hand info.


#13

cartridgecorner,

this here cannot be a serious confirmation for what your source said, but from a necessarily completely different source I heard something very similar about 15 years ago: "Pirot


#14

[quote=“Hans”]cartridgecorner,

this here cannot be a serious confirmation for what your source said, but from a necessarily completely different source I heard something very similar about 15 years ago: "Pirot


#15

Since Cuba received the majority of its weaponry in the 60s and 70s from Czechoslovakia, either Soviet design or Czech design, a suggestion that the rendition of “PMV” in Spanish is the equivalent of the Czech “Zbrojovka Vlasim” (ZV) headstamp of export Military S&B ammo in the 50s, 60s and 70s ( seen on 7,62x54R and 7,62x51, and possibly others)

“Zbrojovka” in Czech translated to Spanish is “Pirotechnia Militar”. Both mean loosely, Arsenal, as in Gov’t factory.
And when I went to S&B in the early 1990s, the major Foreign language spoken by the Office administration, was Spanish, and not English ( of course they all spoke Russian as well as Czech, and the older staff members spoke good German (memories of former occupiers?).

It is also well known that the Chinese went out of their “1” coded ammo factory series when shipping ammo to Africa in support of the Cuban military advisory effort in support of “National Liberation Forces”…the Codes “964” and “946” ( now confirmed as Chinese, by ( Norinco) surplus sales in Australia and other countries in the 1980s etc), were initially identified as “Cuban”, by some over-eager US Mil-int people, who didn’t even look at the similarity in HS Font and Lacquer etc, with similar (but normal coded) Chinese cases.

Fuller’s Book on the SKS rifle ( with an extensive Cartridge section in colour,) mistakenly (though with a ??? mark,) IDs these 964-946 codes as Cuban…

Just a way out suggestion…

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.
Brisbane, Australia.


#16

OK, let’s take it a step further. If I recall correctly, the single source of the PMV cases (and also my 13 draw stage, I think) was a scrap metal facility in Italy. At least that was the story at the time. Which is a more-likely origin for scrap metal in Italy, Cuba or Czechoslovakia?


#17

Jon, judging by scrap metal sources we may get mislead totally. So far I have seen scrap metal from very far places bringing back stuff which got made around the corner before.
As we all know from cases we may have experienced personally in the field of ammunition the likeliness is not always what has really happened.


#18

Hey, that’s all I got;)!


#19

I am not blaming you :)


#20

Many of the Cuban cartridges were found as empty cases in scrap metal containers aboard ships going into Genova harbor. I am ashamed that I have forgotten the collector’s name, as at the time, he was a friend (now have lost contact with him), but one italian collector found many of these cases. He was some sort of Port Inspector, and could examine and even take samples of any cargo. He knew the port of origin and the ultimate destination of each ship he inspected, and the Cuban rounds came from ships coming originally from Cuba.

This was years and years ago. I wish I remembered more of it. He found other headstamps, from other countries, not previously seen as well.

Pivi - do you recall this collector? Perhaps he was active before your time. It was Not Zucchini, Grimaldi, or Mancini. He was the friend of a Journalist, also a collector, who lived in Genova as well. I met the Journalist on a trip there, after much correspondence with him. Very nice fellow and very knowledgeable. I don’t recall if I met the other chap there or not - I think I did as I have a picture of me and the Journalist, along with another chap, from that visit. I wish I was not old and senile, so I could remember these names of people who were, in truth, good friends at the time. This was around 1975-1979.