Interesting 7.65 mm Belgian Box


#1

Here is what I think is an interesting box, one not meant to “escape” the factory…
This is a 50 round box of primed shells, but lacking the typical top label, where instead is written “50 7.65 Belgian Primed Shells” in nib pen. On the bottom is the interesting time/date stamp, which indicates these were received in the Ballistic Dept. at 9:20 AM on March 1, 1917. The box is ink-stamped REMINGTON ARMS UMC CO in four places. The date code H1X indicates box filling on December 1, 1916.

Randy


#2

Randy - great box. Do the cases have a headstamp?


#3

Randy - it just dawned on me that we are not seeing anything but the top label and bottom of the box, so have no idea of the depth of it. Is this box for 7.65 mm Browning (.32 A.C.P. cases), or for 50 7.65 Belgian Mauser rifle cases? Sorry if it is a silly question, but I can’t see anything in the original posting the defines which it is.


#4

John…

I certainly could have (and should have) been more explicit in my original post !!

Box is 2.2 inches high and is for 7.65 Belgian Mauser. Headstamp is REM-UMC 7.65 m/m

Randy


#5

Randy - even though not auto pistol - :-) - it is still a great box! Thanks for the added information. When describing such an exciting item, it is very, very easy to over-look the obvious and not-so-obvious when describing it. I am an expert at leaving out important details, myself! Thanks for sharing it with us.


#6

So why would remington be buying in cases in this calibre? Looks to me like they were starting out to load them and wanted some cases for development work. Do we know if they subsequently went on to make this calibre? Presumably given the year it would be for a war aid contract


#7

Vince…

I believe Remington made these cases…they did not “buy them in”. UMC, (before the merger with Remington in 1911) was making this caliber. This typical 50 round Primed Cases box, albeit without proper top label, was sent from the production line or storage over to the Ballistics Dept., probably for loading by them as test loads in developing a “new” load in this caliber…

Randy


#8

I thought that ballistic stamp was Winchesters? Any proof it was Remington? I have it on a number of Winchester brass / cartridge boxes.


#9

No, Pete…No proof one way or the other…I made the assumption that it was Remington, as the box is stamped REMINGTON ARMS UMC CO in four places, and is full of Remington cases.

So…is it a Remington box, filled in the Remington factory and sent over to the Remington Ballistic Dept. ??

Or…is it a Remington box sent over to Winchester’s Ballistic Dept. for some reason (Winchester was also loading this caliber at this time) ??

Or…did Remington and Winchester have exactly the same model of time/date stamping machine ??

We may never know !!

Randy


#10

Wasn’t there a post about Hopkins & Allen and their production of 7.65mm Model 1889 rifles for Belgium circa 1916-17?

H&A was not an ammunition maker. Perhaps these were sent to H&A for their contract work and the date stamp is actually neither Remington nor Winchester, but H&A?


#11

Yes, John…certainly possible…

Randy


#12

This goes to illustrate the complex nature of contracts in this era. We on this side of the Atlantic have little idea what was going on over there. People like TonyE who has picked up the mantle laid down by P Labatt of going through the British records has give a wonderful insight into the British side of things but I for one know little of what you guys were doing in the same timeframe for countries like Belgium. this one for example pops up out of the blue to me.


#13

Many of the contracts for the Allies that were placed with companies in the United States were placed by the British government through their agents J.P.Morgan.

This was partly because Britain had the infrastructure in place with British or Canadian inspectors in the factories and Morgans looking after contractual arrangements, and partly because Britain was guaranteeing payment.

Probably the best known examples are the Russian contracts for the Mosin nagants, with Winchester for Model 95 muskets and with Colt for Government Model .45 pistols (which even had “English Order” stamped on the slide in Cyrillic).

I will have to check the contract details, but I think the Hopkins and Allen contract for Belgian Mausers was placed directly by the Belgian Government and so probably was the ammunition order with Remington. In the UK, Greener was making Belgian Mausers at the Bagot Street works in Birmingham and Nobel was making ammunition for them.

The research and study of these contracts, both for small arms and ammunition is one that I really enjoy undertaking, as all sorts of information pops out of the woodwork when the files are found!

Regards
TonyE