Not to mention that the Czechs supplied Israel with the 109 version call “Mezek (Mule)” for its rough handling characteristics. They used a substitute engine (can’t recall the designation) that made the plane tough to take off, fly, and land. And for what it’s worth, most of Israel’s first fighter pilots were flying vets of the USAAF, RAF, RCAF, and the Soviet AF…not a bunch I would label as “incompetent”.
Just for the record: the cartridge is not a Mauser design, but developed by German (or Prussian to be exact) state arsenals a decade before the Mauser Mod. 98 was designed. 7.92 is the caliber designation chosen in Czechoslovakia after WW1. The Germans called the caliber 7.9 mm.
The nickel finished bullets are frequently encountered with early post-WW2 Czechoslovak production. They have a non-hardened steel core. Beware of corrosive primers.
P.S. As a shooter, why not try 6.5 mm Swedish if low recoil is a consideration.
Or SKS, no recoil !!!
Jon, that wass the Avia S-199 (comprising of plenty of original Me 109 parts):
Maybe not to confuse “just Pilots” who are able to fly almost any type of aircraft (back then) with a briefing on a certain type with a technical ground crew which is a whole different story.
After all the S-199 was a totally differen aircraft than what the ground crews were used to, had to know and learn everything and had to be able to implement a for them completely new system.
I assume back then all Pilots were pilots before but ground crews were most likely a mix of any imaginable profession which then was “adjusted” to the needs.
Maybe far fetched but that reminds me of the story of the “Germanized” Starfighter F-105G (G for Germany).
Accidental losses in Germany were extremely high (about 1/4 of all F-105G crashed).
Besides technical factors going back to the aircraft not being really fit for European conditions (weather) it was found that a lot problems originated from the ground crews (which here were highly trained before and no amateurs). Only after plenty training and more and stricter regulations losses went down to a more acceptable level.
Thanks for the information JPeelen. I typically say 8mm Mauser, even though I know it’s not a Mauser design… I do this because it’s what I’ve heard all of my life. Seems that Americans say 8mm Mauser and the rest of the world refers to the cartridge as it’s correct military designation… 7.92mm , 7.9mm or 7.92x57 etc…
As for recoil I’ve developed a load with my 7mm Spanish Mauser. I typically use 140 grain soft point at about 2350-2360 fps… Now that’s a soft shooter… 7mm Mauser is one of two cartridges I load for… I do wish I was able to find 7mm or .284 caliber fmj projectiles, might even be cheaper to reload with that…
I’m very happy with my IMI 69 grain match in 5.56mm. Those fly pretty fast out of a 20 inch rifle. Very accurate factory ammo.
Thank again JPeelen. I do appreciate your knowledge. Do you shoot 6.5x55 regularly?
I have one!!! It’s a Norinco commercial model… bought it in 1991. It was both of my boys favorite rifle while they were growing up. I don’t want to sound like a snob, excuse me if I do but I just enjoy bolt action rifles more. I think the sks is much more accurate than people give them credit for. I had mine dialed in at 300 yards back in the day when I did a bunch of shooting at that distance… For a rifle produced for combat it’s more than adequate in terms of accuracy at 300 yards or less. Mines all original, still has the spike bayonet. I like to keep all my surplus type rifles in original condition. It doesn’t get shot much anymore unfortunately… I typically shoot my colt a2 model with a 1/7 twist if I want to shoot a semi auto… the gun will go to one of the kids someday, if they want it… Or a grandkid… If no one wants it they can sell it for cash haha.
Alex, all true, but the Avia was essentially just a Messerschmitt with a Junkers-Jumo in place of the original (and much more effective) Daimler-Benz DB 605.
No, I regularly shoot 7.9 mm (called 8x57IS in CIP countries), mostly to learn more about strengths and limitations of this cartridge. Either modern Sellier & Bellot factory ammunition or my own reloads. The original RWS Cineshot was also very good.
Apart from that I have a knack for shooting the odd cartridge out like 8 mm Lebel or 7.35 Carcano.
If I were into competitive shooting with military calibers, 6.5x55 would indeed be my choice. Many overlook that its ballistics are better than .308 Winchester Match loads. And it is very pleasant to shoot.
Jon: The problem with the Jumo wasn’t that it was a bad engine but rather that it was geared for use in a bomber. It spun the prop more slowly relative to crankshaft speed than the DB which was fine when it was swinging a large diameter He 111 propeller.
With the paddle bladed (but stubby) prop used on the Czech 109 it wasn’t efficient and (I haven’t read this but it’s likely) the torque effect would have been even more of a handful than was the original DB engine and its correct prop. Jack
Yes, but where did the ground crews get their expertise from when they just came from a doozen of courntries before and basically nobody being familiar with German aviation technology?
I think the 7.92x57 is an excellent cartridge… Probably the best of it’s era, athough I would also rank 7mm Mauser, 7.5 Swiss and 6.5 swede up pretty high too for being an all around excellent choice. The 6.5mm or .264 calibers are not new to America, you would think they were with the 6.5 craze going on here. My favorite cartridge by far is .303 British… I have a thing for MK7 ball, which is a very efficient cartridge in my opinion. Anyways… back to 7.92x57… Most of the match and heavier fmj bullets have outstanding ballistic coefficients… Which often exceed that of 30-06 or 308 win. I’ve never really been a fan of 30-06 or 308 win in all honesty but they’ve earned their places in history.
@JPeelen looking through my brass I’ve noticed something weird with the primer/ case flash hole… Berdan primed (I think) with only one flash hole that is off centered. Does that make any sense to you? Seen it before?
The dash “-” on the headstamp indicates that it is a single flash hole case.
Very interesting. Must’ve been a cost savings measure of some sort… Only reason I could see it being implemented. Thanks.
Mayhem already explained it.
The single hole has a larger diameter. A single drill with a larger diameter is less prone to breaking than two smaller drills and requires less resources to make replacements.
The earliest use of a single offset flash hole in a Berdan cartridge seen by me is the Mexican 7 m/m Mauser. I have one dated in the early 1920s. Jack
Very interesting and thank you 8x33. I will translate it with google language text. My Czech or Slovak skills are non existent. I am able to read German to a degree, but I don’t speak it that well anymore. Im from the “Missouri Rhineland”… a large community of German farmers who settled in that region of Missouri because it reminded them of home… I was taught German in elementary school, as a first language in the 1950s, until the American federal government came in and said that wasn’t going to fly… Thank you again.
A great thread. at first I was going to post, but anything I had was alrwady covered. there was at one time a lot of left over german czech and even spanish civil war 7.9 ammunition available. Wgen I began collecting many tears ago, I had a dealer freind wsho was always finding ammo. he callewd one day ande had me come over, he had aqcquired 200+ ammo cans of belted 7,9 mixed loads headstamps etc, i got go thru revery belt and can and bought over a 1000 rounds. there were many interesting headstamps loads and lot of czech polish and other odd manufacturers in mix, he didnt know where it came from but knew Id be interested. And early on I met Lew Curtis ass well, still aqn interesting caliber to study!