Interesting 9 para ctges


#1

A few not too common ctges:

From left to right:

  • glsc,tombac bullet (Nahpatrone)
    hstp: X
  • glsc with green vernish, tombac bullet, green base (Nahpatrone)
    hstp: aux St+ 33 42
  • glsc, red plastic bullet (tear gas)
    hstp: hrn St+ 2 42
    *brass case, tombac bullet (Proof)
    hstp: BESCHUSS 1917
  • glsc, black bullet, green primer (Proof)
    hstp: dnh St+ 3 44

From left to right

  • brass case, tombac bullet, green tip (subsonic)
    hstp: + IVI 69
  • brass case, tombac bullet with a red ring (Flare)
    hstp: WCC 73
  • 9 High standard : brass case, steel bullet (and not copper !) hollow point
    hstp: Rem-Umc 9mm Luger
  • brass case, tombac bullet, yellow tip (flare)
    htp : + IVI 69
  • brass case, tombac bullet, blue tip (Armor piercing ???)
    hstp: FM “SL” 58-9

JP


#2

J-P - a very nice group of 9mm Para. Is there any documentation for the one with reduced diameter orange plastic bullet, “hrn” headstamp, being tear gas? It has always been, to my knowledge, classified as a blank made after the war, on a WWII case, by Huck, N


#3

In regards to that “High standard” steel bullet, I’ve seen ones like this a couple times, and have heard it referred to as a U.S. airforce project? But I’ve never really heard anything specific about it. Was it just an experimental military run? And were these mostly from the 1950’s or 1960’s mostly?


#4

[quote=“JohnMoss”]J-P - a very nice group of 9mm Para. Is there any documentation for the one with reduced diameter orange plastic bullet, “hrn” headstamp, being tear gas? It has always been, to my knowledge, classified as a blank made after the war, on a WWII case, by Huck, N


#5

The red plastic bullet with the hrn headstamp seems to come from Norway. I was told it was a post WW II blank made in Norway when I got mine. I have never heard it described as a tear gas load. I don’t believe it is Huck. They made red paper bullet blanks in 9x19mm but I have not confirmed they made blanks with a red plastic bullet.

In addition to the hrn blank, I have three blanks that were all reportedly made in Norway after WWII. All have blunt red plastic bullets very similar in color and material to the hrn blank. One has an rfo headstamp and one has a kam headstamp dated 7-41. the third has a BEAUX headstamp and I was told it is a Ringdale patent blank. It is very similar to the rfo and kam blanks. All are ascribed to Bakelittfabrikken as experimental or limited production items developed prior to their all red plastic blanks.

I also have a blank with kam 12-42 case with a blunt red plastic bullet which I have ascribed to Huck, but with lots of ??? next to the identification. I’m not home and cannot tell you if this round looks like the the kam load ascribed to Norway.

In summery, this is a three paragraph “I don’t know”. But, now you know as much as I do if that is of any use…

Cheers, Lew


#6

J-P - Lew is probably right about them not being Huck. Back to the drawing board for my own cataloging of them. I got all of these rounds - including the others he is talking about - years and years ago, when I was not saving or seeking the documentation that I do now (the hours I worked at the store wouldn’t have allowed me to file it all - I am two years behind now in filing, and am retired).

At any rate, I checked my list of Huck-made rounds and there is nothing like this on it. I hadn’t thought about Norway. Now, I have to really study, because there are many more types of these blanks with plastic bullets, all of which when I got them were attributed by the European collector to Huck. I will have to match each type to the Huck list.

Perhaps we can get Morten back on this Forum to sort this out for us. If he is not reading this, I will email him.


#7

John, You are right, Morten or Vidar are the two we should have look at this. I searched for a Ringdale Patent and couldn’t find anything, but I could have also misspelled the name so who knows. These are some interesting items and deserve some research! I know you have nothing else to do…

The fact is, they could be Huck, but I don’t remember them in the documented Huck items and they didn’t show up when all the Huck items suddenly became available about 25 years ago.


#8

Lew - Morten will be responding to this later today or tomorrow. I emailed him and he answered me that he will discuss it.

I think you are absolutely right that they are NOT Huck. I have a good document on Huck rounds and there is nothing like them on it. I haven’t had time to use it to resort my rounds yet. I got mine at the same time as I got a lot of Huck stuff. It might have been at the Waldbron-Etzenr


#9

Dear John, my friend

Cartridge no. 3 from left at the upper image, is believed to be one of the very first blanks made by Bakelittfabrikken, or Nammo Bakelittfabrikken AS, which is the correct name after it became a part of Nammo in July 2005.

Lars Ringdal’s patent no. 86129, applied for June 27th, 1953 and granted July 2nd, 1955, describes a blank cartridge very similar to this one. There are, however, two known versions of this cartridge:

To my knowledge, the left one is only registered with German steel cases. This may be one of the reasons it has been taken for a German cartridge. There were large quantities of German ammunition in Norway after WW2, so the use of German cases is not surprising. The right cartridge, which is somewhat less scarce than the left one, is seen both with Italian brass cases and German steel cases. Both cartridges probably date to 1953-1954.

As early as May 5th, 1954, i.e. before his first patent was granted, Ringdal applied for a new patent, which was granted July 2nd, 1955. Patent no. 86131 describes a blank cartridge with a metal base and a plastic body.

The left cartridge is believed to be the result of patent no. 86131. A box dated August 1956 is known to exist, as do some loose cartridges in red plastic. The right cartridge is quite similar to the left one, except for the colour. It is said to be a Huck product, but this is still an open question. I have a Huck box dated “1/I/56” in my collection, and it contains cartridges with brass cases and white plastic “bullets”, totally different from the cartridge in question.

Well, John, this doesn’t sort it out once and for all, there are still answers to be given. But I feel quite comfortable with these four cartridges in my “Norway” drawer, though the white one might be questionable.

Morten


#10

Morten - on very close examination of my blanks, I am now in utter confusion. Firstly, I have the reduced diameter bullet version in steel case. Mine is in an “hrn” case. In fact, yours is the first I have seen that is not, but rather in an “fb” case. I have seven headstamps in the brass-cased one that you show, including that scarce BEAUX headstamp. It has a bullet exactly of the same orange-red color as the reduced diameter bullet. My brass-cased ones are in a mixture of Italian, Spanish and Portuguese (SPC) cases, plus an unheadstamped case and a “K DWM K 480C” case.

Now, I have a steel cased round, “kam” case, with round nose orange-red bullet, but the bullet is seated out farther, and is a slightly different shade than any of the others. I also have a bullet only of the same type, and a line around it indicates it was seated, or meant to be seated, to the same depth as the one in the “kam” case. I don’t know if the bullet design is the same as the other round-nose ones, but again, the color tone is quite different. Now, all of these rounds are brass primer.

In white pointed plastic bullet with the four pre-fracture lines on it, that are supposed to be huck for sure, I have a number and the headstamps of the brass case are the same sort of assortment as the red ones, primarily Spanish and Italian, with unheadstamped as well. To me, these cases are among the least likely to have been in Norway following the war. They are, for the most part, post-war headstamps from the late 1940s or early 1950s, not stuff left over from the German occupation. Of course, they could have been purchased on the scrap market. Now, some of the “Huck” types have copper primers, but some have brass primer cups identical to those in the cases loaded with the orange-red bullets.

The all white plastic case and bullet with brass head and copper primer is on the list of Huck rounds, supposedly made in 1956, in the presentation prepared by someone in Germany. I will admit, though, that it looks more Norwegian to me than do the ones with orange-red bullets. Oddly, the orange-red bullets are not on the Huck list, which considering everything you would think they might be, even if in error, due to the almost identical mix of brass cases. Among the Uck rounds are also black pointed plastic, and a dark red plastic point bullet round. I wonder if that one is Norwegian.

I am really back to the drawing board on this. The only one I am comfortable with as being Norwegian is the steel-cased round with the bullet seated farther out, now that i look at all of them. I wish I had a dupe of the one with the orange-red bullet in brass case, as I would love to cut it open and see the entire “bullet.” The plastic bullet of the type from the “kam” case obviously bottoms out on the internal base of the cartridge case (it is 16.88m/m in length)and is hollow for 15.28m/m of its length.

I hope you guys can sort this out I am confused beyond making any changes yet in how I have catalogued these. I am not saying anyone is wrong - I am just saying that now I don’t know what any of them are.

I’m going to let you and Lew sort this out. If either of you has a dupe of the brass case, lighter orange-bulleted rounds, why not try looking at the bullet to see if it is the same as the one in the steel “kam” case? Look very closely at the color tones too, and if you have ones you think are Huck, compare headstamps and primer cups. I have no answers for this, only questions.


#11

Hi John

We know for sure now it is not a German lacrimatory, but a blank.
What is the value of the round ?
thanks
jp