Interesting NWM box for German Army

The blank box below was a contract for the German Army. Reportedly the 50 round boxes were for the German Army and the 25 round boxes, and later 30 round, for the Dutch, but I have not been able to confirm that. Does anyone have documentation of this? The headstamp is “9x19 NWM 23-61”. There is nothing unusual about the cartridge. There is no year on the lot #!

Typically, on these boxes the year is printed and them the lot number stamped as indicated below.
NWM-blank-50rd-Ulm-lot%20examp

When I pointed this out to individual who had it on their table at the ECRA meeting, I was told this box came from K. D. Meyer who apparently ran the Proof House at Ulm/Württemberg, Germany. There were only 7 rounds missing from the box.

It seems pretty obvious that this was a special lot for the Proof House rather than the Army. The earliest lot I have recorded for this round is 7-61, and 2-61 with an earlier headstamp style. The latest 1961 lot documented is 29-61 and in 1962, most lots from 1 to 25 are documented. So, this is not particularly early lot, but rather about the middle of production. There appears to have been a break in production and the next date on this style blank is 1965.

The obvious question is “Why was Ulm interested in testing this blank???”

Is there any additional information on K. D. Meyer?

Are there other similar boxes with this type of lot number or other non-standard lot numbers associated with ammunition sent to the Ulm Proof House or other proof houses?

A strange box that raises some obvious questions.

Any help appreciated.

Cheers,
Lew

Lew - one question unanswered in your question on this box is what is the earliest of these German DM18 boxes, by the lot number and year, that you have in your collection, or you have absolutely, without question, confirmed in another collection. I mean boxes just as you have shown but including the date on the top label, not without it like the one shown.

I have a reason for this question, which admittedly, depending on your reply, will only prompt another question.

John Moss

kd mayer has never run the proofhouse on its own…he wrote a book about reloading ammo… Usually the proofhouse fabricates their own proofcartridges or get them made for them by ammo-companies…like the 308 with the staghorn in headstamp for Ulm by Dag…
kd mayer has made occassionally small batches of proofloads …but on contract…
at home i will lookup what i have and post it.
he has marked his proofrounds with the necessary knurled rim, and on used cases from other casemakers he put his initials in the primer, as he itself had no own headstamped cases with his trademark or so…
on the road…peter
later more

sorry…i found out that my ammo is from h.diehl…not meyer…
will search tommorow for correct info…

@Lew
Lew,
a friend of mine worked at the proof house in Ulm many years ago.
I remember that he told me that they were also testing blank weapons.
He was really complaining about that because it makes no sense and gives you just dirty fingers.
(Nowadays it is a bit different as the blank gun manufacturers have to weaken their desings so much that it is not possible to reconvert them to life guns again. This is als shown by unsing cases which do not match life ammo i.e. 9mm PAK)
In regard of the NWM cartridges I assume due to the age that they were testing guns convertet to blank guns at that time.
Regs.
Jo

Peter, Lew did not state that Meyer ran the proof house ‘on his own’. He was the manager there.

Being a proof house manager and a small arms ballistics expert usually qualifies people for writing books on reloading. So, yes, he did write a very good book on reloading also.

Lew got the box from me and I know where it came from. I understood that Meyer had an accident at some time and that ended his career. I will ask for more details.

The proof house did not only proof guns, but also did ballistics testing for police, army and commercial companies. I also found ammunition that came from the german ‘CSI’, recovered from crimes. Meyer had a front row seat and acquired what interested him. When he died, a mutual friend and gun dealer helped to dispose of what ammo was left.

In the mean time, here is is business card…

there where no, and never blankfiring guns in 9mm Luger…please check this with your friend from the proofhouse…because blankfiring guns in calibers also used for live pistols where forbidden already by the first gun law after the second war.
The exception where conversion of 7,65 Brw. Pistols to 8mm blanks by CDS and first by Company P.M.Busch…but already forbidden 1 year later. thats why they cost today around 1000 to 1500 euros…

The main use of this ammo was for army training with blank firing adaptors on regular 9mm firearms.

Here is a copy of an Ulm report to Mauser on some ballistics testing they did.

Peter,

In my time in the Dutch army, this round was used on manoeuvres using the UZI mp.
These days I also had a Browning 9mm pistol, were no manoeuvre device was available for.

I cannot imagine that the blank cartridge was made without any measurements of a proof house in Germany or the Netherlands.

Best regards

Vlim,
I cannot see any 9mm Lugers on this shown Report…its about 7,65 Parabellum ammo, because Mauser was in this time working on revive production of the ParabellumPistol in both calibers 9mm and 7.65 Para
Do you have a page with results about testing the 9Luger blank from this initial question??
Army and police ammo are excempted by law from proofhouse procedures, except for VPAM approvment…
thx
pp

Hi dutch
Netherland has no proofhouse as it is no member of CIP.
Secondly as described before, Army and Police is excempted from proofregulations…thats why army 9luger guns have to be reproofed for civilian use…and usually with the new cip-regulations they refused mostly as Bundeswehr chambers are not in the specs of new cip regulations. Most of the army stuff (p1 p38) was changed to 9x21 for the italian market. The guns where disposef of by Vebeg, a big part was also given to “friends” in Afghanistan…and you can buy them now in all corners around Kabul…
the ammo for army or police are ordered by themself and in the given order are the specs (Pflichtenheft). The army has their own proofing unit (Baudirektor or lower ranks directly in the production companies) and the police has the same. I was in a testing unit for BBG- (Brandenburg) ammo and it was like in old times from factory to factory…also in Poland…(where the BBG-Police ordered 9Makarov and 7,62x39) and we tested under use of ww2 equipment left there from the “Wehrmacht”

There is a difference between proofing and testing… the proof house did both…

Peter,

unfortunately I could not ask him as he just disapeared from the scene…
Understood, was just an assumption of mine, obviously wrong.

Regs

Jo

Hi,

The document was just to explain that besides the mandatory proofing, the Ulm proof house also did testing work for other parties, including companies. I wrote the friggin’ book on the Mauser Parabellum production so I know damn well what they did.

Thank you for stating the obvious and not reading my comment in the first place.

John,
I have three boxes of this style with the full Lot number. One with the normal lot number shown in my original post and another with NWM-16-61. The final one is NWM-6-62. All three are identical. I may have more in my dupes since I do not try to save all box lot numbers.

Peter and Vlim, Thanks for all the information. I suspected this was a complex topic, but I didn’t appreciate how complex it is.

Cheers,
Lew

Vlim,

the proofhouse of Ulm went to another location around 1987.
https://www.beschussamt-ulm.de/beschussamt/hauptnavigation/wirueberuns/historie/index.php?lvl=2062
On this page second pic from below ist the old location mentinoned on the business card of Mr. Mayer and on the letter. The two pics above show the new one.
Additional information: The Beschußamt Ulm (Proof House) was the first proof house after WW II. which was installed in Germany and was the successor of the proofhouse in Oberndorf. They also took over the sign of the Oberndorf proof house.
Today they do not onty proof and test guns and amo but also test bullet proof devices (cars, vests what ever).

Lew,

O.K. I had a theory going thru my head about why those blanks might be found at a major German proof house in the region of the capitol city of the BRD (at that time), but the above exchange was very confusing to me, so I will let it go at that.

I will mention that the earliest box I have for these aluminum-cased blanks, probably made for official German use (Army or Police - I have no idea which), is dated from July 1958. The box is a mixture of a style much like the 16-round box labels for the Wehrmacht during the 1930s and 1940s (white label with vertical blue stripe 35 mm wide down the middle) and a more or less commercial box. Cartridge info is in German an maker’s info is in Dutch. Interestingly, the “Los - Nr.” marking is not followed by any entry. The date is on the other side end of the top label with its own title of “Fert.Dat: 7 .58.” The dot between the “7” and the "58 is actually a tiny diamond-shaped symbol and the “7” is a larger number than the “58” in actual size. Both are printed on the label, not rubber stamped.

You likely have this box, so I didn’t bother to scan it. If you want a scan, I can do one.

John Moss

I agree with John that the discussion got a little confusing and I think, for reasons unclear to me, more heated than the subject deserves.

The box shown by Lew in the first message is an ordinary box for Bundeswehr, showing the DM18 model number (1x = first model, x8 = training) together with the AQ61 (our equivalent of DODIC) for 9x19 blanks. If there were anything special about the contents, it would show on the label. Therefore I see no indication that this was a special load tested at the Ulm proof house. The DM18 blanks were manufactured according to a Bundeswehr specification and accepted by the BWB (today BAAIN). Bundeswehr was and is excempted from the proof law. So Ulm had no formal role in this, but very probably tested the DM18 informally, in particular while K.D. Meyer was there. He was always curious regarding firearms matters, quite the opposite of todays officials.

As Dutch already wrote, these blanks were used for the MP2 (UZI), where they functioned flawlessly with the blank firing attachment. Of course, the P1 (P38) cannot function with blanks. I never encountered other 9x19 blanks during my service than the NWM aluminium case type.

I have to disagree with Forensic: Klaus Dieter Meyer was head of the Ulm proof house. I made a visit there and know people who worked there while he was (old location Fort Unterer Eselsberg). Sometimes not an easy character to deal with, he sadly suffered severe headwounds in a traffic accident, was invalidated and died early.

Interesting posts! Thanks.

Still, if this box and the ammo are standard army, why the lack of a year on the label which does not meet military standards. For this reason alone the box must have been intended for something other than normal military usage. The connection with K. D, Meyer is suggestive, but nothing more.

Has anyone a similar box without the date???

I am interested in your thoughts.

Cheers,
Lew

Just a side note, German military uses the singular form of an item in it’s designations.

Means:
“PATRONE” (cartridge)
While the label here gives the plural:
“PATRONEN” (cartridges)

If hell did not freeze and somebody carried out a miserable job and screwed up the shown box by Lew was NOT made for the German military but other institutions.
I.e. for example German police for example is using the plural as on the box.
And as Vlim said, the proof houses do a lot of side work apart from proofing guns and their customers are also police and good knows who else (including industry and even private persons).

Maybe worth to keep in mind.

Alex, it could be right for some calibers and variants, but “Patronen” was widely used in German army DM41 boxes and crates from several manufacturers (DAG, MEN, MS, FNM, HP).

Regards,

Fede