Interesting (Unknown 2 me) Aircraft Gun Ammunition - German?


#1

I thought this was a interesting photo showing a cool bullet and gun system. I am guessing it is on a aircraft (German), but who knows maybe it is not? Any one have a clue? I was thinking that the gunners hat looked aviation related, not really sure. Neat historical pic :-)

Jason


#2

Jason

Interesting indeed.

The cartridges appear to be fluted dummies.

And where is the gun mechanism? Is it along side the gunner?

Ray


#3

I really liked this picture when i saw it. I have no idea where the mechanism is, is that the trigger?

I am wondering if the person in the pic is real or a wild chance it is a mannequin or great wax replica and this is a static museum display. “WAY OUT THEIR THINKING” :-) The guy looks so intent to shoot and kill something but has dummies? I always thought the fluetted part was part of the link assembly?


#4

It’s an MG131 (13 m/m) and I think it’s the links that are fluted or corrugated. JG


#5

That’s what I thought also, that it was part of a big link. That guy looked ready to fire and kick butt if he had to. Either that or a posed picture or a display somewhere?? Can anyone tell if it is a airplane? Maybe a tank type thing? I will see if I can blow up the picture in I-Photos to see the link or dummy groove part better?


#6

I’d go with the MG131. But whatta I know? The reciever is shadowy but visible next to the gunners’ right shoulder. Looks like it might be a turret on a Condor. Don’t recall many WW2 German aircraft armed up like that, or large enough for that system. That’s a big gun. Most gunner positions utilized 7.92 flex guns. WAG. I’m lookin’ all this up now. (Starting with FLYING GUNS WW2 by Mr Williams and Dr Gustin).


#7

That is definately an aircraft turret. A quick internet search using Wikipedia and Google leads me to beleive that this turret is probably on a Heinkel “He-177” bomber or similar aircraft. Apparently German bombers had both remote and manned turrets using 20mm and 13mm guns. They had trouble developing remote turrets and so manned turrets were often used. I’d say that the links are fluted and the ammo is a mix of HE and solid-shot AP types. Good photo. We often think of the US heavy bombers and the commonly seen twin .50 cal. turrets, so this is an interesting variation on the aircraft armament theme!

AKMS


#8

Found it. Page 239. German FDL 131 turret for/with MG131.

FDL = Ferndrehlafette a remote controlled turret, probably on an
He 177A-1/R-1 aircraft

MG131 uses a 13MM(13 X 64B) round. Electric primer! Lots of neat info on this cartridge on page 21. By the way.

Which means that dude shouldn’t be standing there when firing. Another HERO SHOT! Maybe related to that guy with the colorful M2.


#9

If it is a remote turret, why the plexiglass cover and not metal? Then again, where are the gunsights?

AKMS


#10

And note the little twist vent at the top. For ventilation. No reason given for glass dome, but same turret was used with other guns; so they say. Weight? Strategic material savings?


#11

I found this very same photo on a WWII German aircraft website and it is identified as an EDL-131 turret mounted on a FW-200 aircraft. The FDL-131 was the remote version and is very low profile and covered with a metal cover.

AKMS


#12

[quote=“slick rick”]Found it. Page 239. German FDL 131 turret for/with MG131.

FDL = Ferndrehlafette a remote controlled turret, probably on an
He 177A-1/R-1 aircraft

MG131 uses a 13MM(13 X 64B) round. Electric primer! Lots of neat info on this cartridge on page 21. By the way.

Which means that dude shouldn’t be standing there when firing. Another HERO SHOT! Maybe related to that guy with the colorful M2.[/quote]

A remote controlled turret usually has no plexiglass parts and also no space for someone posing for photos.


#13

Possible Aircraft ?


#14

I have never seen or heard of a turret (manned or not maned) on a wing! Well, maybe in Star Trek? :-) Extremely cool! Gotta be a scary job.


#15

I only have the one source of info on this. Can’t say it’s the definitive reference, but maybe it is. Noted was the variations in turret designations, both 2 and 3 lettered, used as system identifiers, that oddly, were not consistent throughout the war. Much like US designation variables. A potential “remote control” identifier for this turret is the lack of the ring and post sighting arrangement, pictured on other options. Unless it was taken off for the photo, and the mechanics visible through the glass that replicate exactly that pictured in the book, and the fact NOBODY would want their head that close to the action, I’d bet it’s a photo op in a FDL.

And then there’s this: ww2aircraft.net/forum/weapon … 368-2.html

Having perused a couple more tomes on the subject, I am led to believe this is a “manned” vs RC turret. Only one reference says otherwise. Out of 4. Found the same pic in two of the books.


#16

And here a picture from the rounds with the links from the other side…


#17

Not only did the Germans have wing-mounted (remote) Turrets, but the Russians also had an early War (late 30s) design Bomber, with gun turrets in the inboard Engine nacelles at the rear…and manned!! Not a comfortable place to be if an engine caught fire…
But then the Russians also launched Paratroopers off the wings as well…no shortage of “volunteers”…courtesy of the NKVD ("jump or we shoot you, and then you fall anyway, comrade!!)

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#18

Another bomber with wing mounted- remote controlled gun turrets was the WW2 italian Piaggio P 108 B.
comandosupremo.com/P108.html


#19

The turret with the 13 mm MG is the top-turret of a Dornier Do217E-2 or D0217J / Do 217 K-2
It’s not a remote controlled turret, but manned.

The inside of the turret is on the same website as the outside colour picture from the start of this item. ( ww2aircraft.net/forum/weapon … 368-2.html )

More info:
savagesquadron.com/GEpage/GE … 217E-2.htm
parkerinfo.com/plans/applans2.htm
paginas.terra.com.br/lazer/plast … 7fotos.htm

Grtz
Jaco


#20

Those of you who are lucky enough to own a copy of “Flying Guns WW2” can turn to page 239 where you will see two photos: one of an FDL 131 with the cover off, and one of an EDL 131 complete with gunner. It is unclear from the photos which one is shown in the pic at the start of this thread; the glazing of the EDL turret is different, but there may have been more than one type. What is visible of the turret mechanism looks like the FDL - but I don’t have a clear picture of the EDL mechanism for comparison.

The EDL 131 was installed in aircraft as small as the Ju 188 - on top of the cockpit. The 13mm MG 131 was a very small gun (much more so than the .50 BMG) as it was designed as a straight replacement for the 7.92mm MG 15 and had to fit into similar installations.

Outboard defensive guns were used in WW1. Some of the giant German Staaken bombers had gun positions in the engine nacelles.