Is this cartridge related?


#1

A number of years ago I bought out the remains of one of Buttweiler’s bin sales at the Chicagoland Show.
There was enough stuff to almost fill a 20mm steel ammo box.
Everything was either a cartridge or cartridge related. Two items I have no clue as to that they are.
This is one of them.



What is this and is it cartridge related?

Total Length: 1.352”
“Rim” Diameter: 0.533”
Base Diameter: 0.43-0.44”
Length “rim” to”top”: 1.08”
Diameter protrusion from base: 0.19”
Weight: 164 grains (10.6 grams)

The “bullet” end appears to be soldered shut.

Any ideas or guesses as to what it is?

Thanks,

Paul


#2

In the abscence of any other posts it looks to me to be some kind of round for a converted cap and ball revolver but I don’t know.


#3

May be some sort of thermocouple. From an old steam machine or something.


#4

Such things are usually threaded but lead burn out valves were used in steam boilers to fail if the boiler ran dry and prevent it blowing up. The nipple on the back of the “cartridge” is however more of an indication to me that its some form of transitional ammunition. Interesting though, if it is a cartridge I reckon its quite rare. Its size at .44" is very revealing. That would indicate to me an ammunition connection. Made to fit inside the chamber of a revolver perhaps?


#5

I believe it may be the percussion adapter for the Williamson Derringer which was a single shot .41 rimfire gun, but provided with the adapter(s) for use if cartridges were not available. These were made by Moore’s Patent Firearms and then National Firearms of New York City circa 1866-1870.

Nice find!

Here is a link to a site showing a modern made example that appears similar to yours, but made of steel instead of brass(?).

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/06/guest-post-the-williamson-derringer/


#6

Paul,

Very interesting item you have there. Likely John S. has nailed it regarding its intended use. For reasons that will remain unclear, I started to think on its use as a C&B revolver conversion cartridge as Vince suggested and made models of the case with the dimensions you provided and a cylinder of a Remington '58 type revolver with the idea of playing out a “conversion” application I had in mind.

Didn’t get far. Net result: the rim is too big!

Pardon the “artsy” look of the cylinder view…

Thanks for sharing this item and I hope to learn more about this conversion cartridge I have never seen before.

Dave


#7

There is something similar in 12ga sold today but I can’t find a reference for it. I have been searching.

Neither can I think of a practical purpose for it. I think its just one of those geeky things that if you make it and put it on the shelf somebody will buy it just because its there. I think it runs along the lines of “converts your modern shotgun to BP.”

Has anyone else seen it or am I having a senior moment?

Anyway that that one put to bed, bring on the next.


#8

John,

That conversion you provided a link to is very interesting. Makes sense to provide an option for using cap and ball components when the new fangled cartridges aren’t available. I started scheming on its use as a cartridge conversion for a C&B revolver with the spacer plate holding the six rounds but the rim diameter put that to rest!

Vince,

A modern version sure doesn’t sound too practical unless there’s some value to novelty! Would be interested in seeing info on the 12ga. version if you ever come across it.

Dave


#9

Thanks for all your input. I was also thinking along the line of some type of conversion cartridge but the nipple didn’t seen right for a percussion cap.

Paul


#10

It kind of looks like a variation of one of those pauly cartridges; the very first self contained cartridge. It had a mercury filament in the nipple that was ignited by a needle that went in the center. Pauly’s second version of his cartridge that he patented is actually in engel’s upcoming auction and it still looks similar to this…those cartridges got modified further and turned into casmir lefauchex’s pinfire.

Maybe?


#11

Its not quite what I was looking for but take a look at this

patentgenius.com/image/4227330-2.html

two other related patents

5010677
4232468

The one I remember seeing was similar to the one illustrated in the post and was bored out internally to make a chamber within the adaptor so it could be loaded externally and slipped in like a cartridge.(more like patent 423468) It also had a conventional M/L nipple recessed into the base. Trouble is I can’t find a reference to it now, but I’m still looking.


#12


Photo of the Pauly variation with the attached nipple. Earlier variations had a small shallow center hole where priming compound was smeared & those were fired with compressed air heated by going through a small orifice.

Aaron where did you get the “mercury filament” information?

The other is the Williamson .41 Rimfire adapter plus with a percussion cap. Those were of steel, the period and the later made variations (ca. 1930’s 40’s).

What the object in question is, I don’t know, but it’s not the Williamson or a Pauly variation.


#13

Pete,

Pauly had many different designs and patents before his most famous one that you pictured. Firearms: The Life Story of a Technology by Roger Pauly tells about a few, and also, A History of Firearms: From Earliest Times to 1914 by W. Y. Carman talks about the mercury-filament needle actuated centerfire cartridge he made.


#14

Hello,
the specimen pictured by Pete is NOT a Pauly.
The Pauly ctges have no nipple.

Pauly applied for 3 patents: two in England and one in France.
In none of his patents he talks about a mercury filament needle.

jp


#15

Got to disagree with you JP, the Pauly, is a Pauly, and from/for a pistol.


#16


two pauly cartridges
13 15mm Pauly nhs, AIR-IGNITION sys w/fulminate inside nipple, heated air ignites it, 1.135”
brass ‘case’ & steel nipple o/a
14 15mm Pauly nhs, fired 1.085” 2-piece brass case, lead ball included, fulminate was smeared
in center recess for ignition

more info, which may show JP is partially correct. (about the patented by pauly part, though Pete’s cartridge is definitely considered a pauly cartridge)

François Prélat is the one who applied for the patent for the 2nd cartridge, he worked in association with Jean Samuel Pauly. He used a percussion pin to provoke ignition, which improved the invention of Jean Lepage who used a system where the fulminate was just poured into a pan near the breech.

The two had a shop, rue des Trois-Frères, in Paris.

Prélat later took some of this knowledge and applied for the patent for the invention of the percussion cap


#17

The Pauly ctges have no nipple, but just a hole filled by fulminate.

They look like your picture n°13 (for pistol) or the following picture for a rifle.

Here is a view of the cup

In bonus is a view of a rifle with complete set

About the ctges with a neeple, like the one in your picture 14, they came later and they are not Pauly ctges
The first designer was Roux.

Here is a view of a hunting ctge

Three things :

  1. “Pete’s cartridge is definitely considered a pauly cartridge” :
    Does it mean if some people make a mistake we must carry on to use a wrong designation ?
    It is definitively not a Pauly ctge.

  2. Ask to the people to show you a reference (patent, and so on) proofing the ctges with a nipple are Pauly ctges.
    Extract from a book or a catalogue is not a proof.

  3. Be carefull about old French ctges.
    If you have “invention brevetée” (patented invention) stamped on something it means the guy applied for a patent about this thing.
    If you have “breveté” (patented) stamped on something it means the guy applied for a patent on something (which can have nothing to see with the item on wich it is stamped)

For example I had a patent on a bicycle. I was allowed to writte “Jean-Pierre breveté” on a gun.

Only a few people know this, therefore many writters make mistakes in their books

JP


#18

So what about my statement of François Prélat making and patenting that cartridge then?

And more importantly, is this cartridge anything similar to the original post of what the OP was looking for answers on?


#19

[quote=“AaronN322”]
two pauly cartridges
13 15mm Pauly nhs, AIR-IGNITION sys w/fulminate inside nipple, heated air ignites it, 1.135”
brass ‘case’ & steel nipple o/a
14 15mm Pauly nhs, fired 1.085” 2-piece brass case, lead ball included, fulminate was smeared
in center recess for ignition

more info, which may show JP is partially correct. (about the patented by pauly part, though Pete’s cartridge is definitely considered a pauly cartridge)

François Prélat is the one who applied for the patent for the 2nd cartridge, he worked in association with Jean Samuel Pauly. He used a percussion pin to provoke ignition, which improved the invention of Jean Lepage who used a system where the fulminate was just poured into a pan near the breech.

The two had a shop, rue des Trois-Frères, in Paris.

Prélat later took some of this knowledge and applied for the patent for the invention of the percussion cap[/quote]

hello,

I checked some patents.
Francois Prelat never worked with Pauly (Pauly was already dead !!) and his patents have nothing to see with Pauly work.
Most of his patents refered to muzzle loading guns, or trigger assemblies.

One of his patents (about 1850) was for a ctge with a nipple but with flat base )
The adress of Prelat has never been Rue des 3 freres, but rue de la ferme des Maturins.

jp


#20

I think by way of mediation on this point. It is often the case that similar, even identical , ideas spring up in different places simply because the time is right for that particular thing. The original post looks like a good idea for the time and probably thats as far as it needs to go. It was a great time of change and innovation and I for one would be happy to view it as just that. I think its a neat piece of thinking for its era. A curio that is interesting and shows us how things were in those days. Valuable? well maybe. Interesting definitely.
We come on this forum to learn and thats what I have done.