Israeli 105MM APFSDS Projectile Made For Germany As DM23

General Ammunition Discussion
#1

I just acquired this awesome 105MM DM23 APFSDS-T projectile. According to Jane’s, it was made by IMI for Germany or maybe in Germany under license. It has a design feature that I have only seen in other IMI APFSDS projectiles in that it has some kind of ball bearing system incorporated around the sub-projectile dart. You can easily spin the sub-projectile by hand inside the three, ported sabot petals. If anyone knows, I would love to find out what the correct case and primer it uses so I can one day match it up if I’m lucky :-)

Jason

Tail Fin Stenciling

You can see part of the bearing system around the sub-projectile in this view

#2

I had to get out my Webster’s to find the right word. There’s only one way to describe this projectile:

WOW!!

Ray

#3

Thanks, Ray! I agree, it really is so cool!

Jason

#4

Jason, the original development by IMI was designated M111 and loaded in a M148A1B1 type case. Here is a sectioned projectile:

#5

You’re the best, Fede! That photo is awesome. I love how the windshield is sectioned showing the four denal wads. Also it is nice seeing the upper ball bearing apparatus. Very grateful for the info and photo. Thank you.

Jason

#6

I would think that with an IMI lot number it would have been in Israel for Germany.

#7

Jason, the upper part you are calling a “ball bearing” is just a ring (with predetermined breaking points) that keeps the sabots in place while the lower part has holes drilled into the 3 sabots (1 each below the white plastic obturator which looks like the driving band) which form a ring shaped groove inside near/around the penetrator and the 3 holes and that groove are cast wih plastic to keep the sabots in place. You can see that in the cutaway image.

#8

Does anyone have a high-speed photo of the projectile being fired? That would be something to see.

Ray

#9

Ray, I have seen some high speed footage of that and it is amazing to watch the sabot peel off and tracer burning :-) I have a lot of high speed pics and will look for a vid.

Alex,

Too funny, I always thought it was a bearing as the penetrator spins so easily within the sabot petals. You taught me something, again :-) Thank you. These designs are so fascinating.

Jason

#10

Some in flight, high speed sabot separation photos for you ray :-)

Jason

Russian 125MM APFSDS ?

#11

Thanks Jason. Great photos!

I wonder if those on the receiving end can hear or see the darts in flight, coming their way?

Back in the 20th Century when I was a USN Gunners Mate, I thought that the 5"/54 MK 41 VT fuzed projectile in a Rapid Fire gun was about as far advanced as a large caliber weapon could ever be. A case of poor prophecy on my part.

Ray

#12

Muzzle velocity is around four times the speed of sound and the darts do not loose a lot of speed on the trajectory. The Leopard 2 projectile approaches the Paris gun in range (120 km, I doubt it was actually tried). So no chance to hear them. (The same for rifle bullets, by the way. When you hear the crack, it has already passed you.)

With the correct lighting, background and environmental conditions, sniper observers cannot see their buddy’s bullet itself, but the air disturbance it creates. This would in theory also apply to ADPSFS, looking from the front. I am afraid even if, admidst a raging tank duel, you could see somethig coming in, it would be too late to react.

A case of being able to see the bullet itself (again depending on lighting conditions; bullets with closed -i.e. bright- base) is the 45 ACP, from behind the gunner, of course. I can attest to this from personal observation.

#13

Thanks for the great explanation, JP! I always wondered if the sub-projectile made a noise that was audible in flight, also.

Jason

#14

[quote=“JPeelen”]
A case of being able to see the bullet itself (again depending on lighting conditions; bullets with closed -i.e. bright- base) is the 45 ACP, from behind the gunner, of course. I can attest to this from personal observation.[/quote]

This is what some machine gunners reported too (no tracers!).

#15

[quote=“APFSDS”]Thanks for the great explanation, JP! I always wondered if the sub-projectile made a noise that was audible in flight, also.

Jason[/quote]

You would just hear a supersonic crack as it went by.

#16

They probably seldom have a chance to go sub-sonic, but would there be a “whoosh” before and/or after they did?

Ray