I need a few Israeli 9mm box labels, in Hebrew, to illustrate a “discussion” I’m having on another forum. If you have any readily available pics, please post them here or e-mail them to me.
I got these beauties from John Moss. I’ll try to find time tomorrow for some translations.
Jon, Maybe I’m confused. From your posting I thought you were looking for boxes for the silver tip cartridges (which I don’t have).
I assume you only want Isreali military boxes and do not want IMI commercial or contract load boxes. I also assume you don’t want the blank and tracer boxes.
If I am wrong, please let me know.
Thanks Lew, I got what I needed.
John’s center box with the red printing, should be silver-tip ball. It says “Automatic Pistol” in red.
Just out of curiosity; the coloured robes (blue and grey) on the box does that mean anything?
Not that I know of.
Joost - I think the ones with the colored strings are probably the one box on the top row of sealed cans or cases that has them (some case have one on each row), for the purpose of being able to pull out the first box. The hole in the order of the boxes that leaves makes the rest of the boxes easier to pull out. I used to think that was silly, until I opened my first can of ammo with tightly boxed rounds in it, and almost broke my finger trying to get the first box out of the can. I don’t know why, since I think they are only one to a can, I ended up with several of them as my only box of that labeling. It was NOT by design. Just happened that way. I don’t see the color of the string having any significance myself, but I have no real information on that.
Jon is correct. The one with red print on the box is for the silver-tipped pistol ball. The one at the lower right with the blue string is for the the frangible ball (clear plastic bullet filled with shot imbedded in the plastic), and the one with “FN B” in the lot number information actually has ammunition headstamp “F + N 71” in it. The “+” mark was used here to represent the NATO mark. I really should not have included that, because it was not relevant to the argument in process. I mean’t to show a tracer box with red stripe, and grabbed the wrong box.
As all of us know, there were lots of other loadings, but all of my boxes for those loadings are either in English, or in the language of the countries for which IMI made them (various police loads).
Do you know the h/s in the box to the left of the silver tip, with 1976 in the last line? The last line is interesting, it says:
NOT FOR USE AFTER OCT. 1976. I don’t think it’s Israeli-made ammo, the lot letter code is not for IMI.
Jon - I don’t know what’s in it. It is a mint full box, and when I told a visiting collector, at about the time I got it (I hadn’t opened it yet), that I was going to cut it open, he told me I would be a total fool to open it. So, I didn’t. Maybe Lew knows. If push comes to shove, I will try to figure out a way to open it. I never gave a thought to the possibility that it might not be Israeli ammunition. I figured it would just be standard ball of the era of the date on it, for which I knew the headstamp - another reason I didn’t bother to open it. I usually open boxes, but with everyone paying big prices for nice, full boxes, I am getting more and more reluctant to do it as one of these days, at my age, the collection will, of course, pass on to someone else.
Lew, Do you have this box or know what is in it?
The code on that box (same place as the FNB) is N"S (or Sh), and not the T.Z. for IMI. It could be for “Neshek Shivui”, “Captured Weapons”.
The “Captured Weapon’s” box is a new one to me. Could be battle field pickups perhaps. I am in the process of going through about 4000 rounds of Israeli 9x10 ball ammo. Nothing that is a great surprise, but lots of dates. I’m about three quarters of the way through and have found about 175 non-Israeli cartridges. The FN 71 box was interesting because about 10-15% of what I have found is (NATO) F 71 N. There is also some FN 70, (NATO) AI 71 A in about the same quantities as FN 71, as well as a good deal of British TH 57 and RG 59. I had assumed these were all Israeli contract buys, and John’s FN 71 box confirms this. There are other hsts like BPD 53 M 38 9, a few Czech from the 50s and ones & twos of a scattering of other headstamps. What surprised me is that there were quite a few early Egyptian headstamps and some Syrian headstamps mixed in this batch.
In addition to the foreign headstamps there were about 10 early Israeli headstamps from 50-53, and about a four A E 7 headstamps, and one A E 8!!! There was also a 76 Israeli headstamp that was an obvious reload and a (NATO) FN 66 with a purple painted primer that is clearly a DAG product, down to it’s magnetic GM bullet.
Sure would like to see what the headstamps are in the “Captured Weapons” box. It is a real time capsule.
Lew - o.k. - you guys got me. I opened the box. It was a major disappointment. The ammo is very spotty Israeli ammunition of the most common headstamp, two Israeli Characters at the top with the hyphenated date at the bottom. Dates ranged from 1967 to 1968 with nickeled primer cups, and from 1969 to 1973 with brass primer cups. Rounds with nickel primer cups had a blue primer seal. All the ones with brass cups, except for 6-72, have that usual “off-red” Israeli primer seal. The one dated 6-72 has a true, dark-purple primer seal. The predominant date from the 25 rund box was 1973, with 11 rounds from that year. Seven of those rounds were “3-73.”
The cartridges were all cleaned with some chemical similar to Case-Brite, and have the dull, dark yellow appearance common to brass cleaned with that chemical. Anyone who has used the product Case-Brite will know exactly what I mean, and I cannot describe the color any better for those that have not.
The cartridges were separated by interwoven cardborad strips, not what I can a true divided inner box. I don’t know how I will ever get them back in the box, but I will try, as this ammo is real garbage and has zero shooting value, as far as I am concerned. Also no collector value, other than the box.
I opened it by taking out two staples, and avoided cutting the label at all. It will be fun to try and reinsert the staples.
Regarding Lew’s comments on ammo from Israel that he has been sorting thru, I can say it sounds typical of loose ammo shipped out of that country. Years ago, Ed Faust of Pacific International brought in a huge shipment of Israeli ammo, including 9mm Para (and one Geico Lizard still alive after making an ocean trip from Israel to California in a nailed-shut wood box full of ammo - the most interesting thing in the shipment). The 9mm included ammo from many countries, including France, Lebanon, Israel (of course), Syria, Egypt, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, England, etc. There were a few rounds found of a rare Bulgarian headstamp variant, with the dated followd by the Cyrillic letter for the “CH” sound, the meaning of which I don’t know. It is not surprising to me that Syrian and Egyptian ammunition would be found scattered among Israeli ammunition that sound like battlefield scrounge. They were, after all, major players in all of the aggresive wars against Israel, until Sadat of Egypt had the courage to say no to the violence and, regretably, paid with his life for that decision, predictably killed by his own people.
Regarding the non-FN made “F N 66” headstamp, the rounds I know of all came out of Israeli-shipped ammo. I am not saying it was an Israeli contract - I haven’t the foggiest - just reporting an observation.
OK, bad guess on the N/S(h) code. I’ll see what else it could be.
Thanks John, I thought I’d be up all night imagining the hsts in your box! In the stuff I got was a Kynoch 38 Webley revolver cartridge and a 38 S&W (forgot the maker). Very interesting assortment.
I’ll buy you a bottle of wine at SLICS to make up the difference in the value of the box (open vs unopen)—then I’ll help you drink it!!!
What headstamps “Kynoch 38 Webley revolver cartridge and a 38 S&W”?
“K57 380 2Z” and “G.F.L. 38 S.W.” both FMJ loads.