Israeli 9MM Collection

General Ammunition Discussion
#1

I was recently given the most amazing collection of Israeli 9MM ammunition by, John Moss, who I am beyond grateful to. I had no clue there were so many varieties, some of them being pretty wild looking. Each one of these is different in some way. I confess that I am a complete newbie to small bore ammunition collecting and know nothing about most of these rounds other then the fact that John gave me a collection that would have taken me a lifetime to collect, especially the A E 7 and A E 8 headstamps which mean a lot to me considering their story.

HEADSTAMPS

Colored Projectiles

HOLLOW POINTS

MY FAVORITES A E 7 and A E 8

Not sure what this is but this is the only projectile in the group that has a weird ringed pattern around the circumference of the projectile.

THANK YOU AGAIN SO MUCH, John! :-) Now I am thinking of a cool way to display them. Got an idea to use part of either a stainless steal or plexiglass test tube rack?

Jason

#2

Jason - it was my pleasure. You have contributed a huge amount to our hobby thru this Forum, and your willingness to help others find “artillery parts” for others. Not to mention you devotion to our friends from the animal kingdom.

I would like to tell you that the group is full of rarities, but it is not. A few that are now scarce but at one time were relatively common, like the A E headstamps. I sense you are like me. We all like to have a “rare one” but any new addition to my collection is, for the most part, just as treasured and fun to have found as the less common items.

My donation to your collection after your trip to Israel was a very, very small thing. Your appreciation of this little gift is, to me, a HUGE thing. Thank you my friend.

#3

They are all treasures to me, John! So thankful! U rule!

Jason

#4

very nice collection

#5

Jason, the one load with the light blue tip and the “cannilure” ring-around-the-bullet is a 124gr Subsonic for use in pistols.

#6

Speaking of 9mm (who isn’t?) here’s a collection that may interest some of you. He has several other collections for sale (different calibers) so his site is worth looking at. He will give up the reserve price if asked.

gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt … =258379424

#7

Thanks so much, Leon!

Jason

#8

Does a “cannilure” have a function other then a visual ID? Does it directly effect ballistic values in any way?

Jason

#9

Jason - some cannelures on bullets are the crimping groove. Some “cannelures” on cartridge cases are to keep the bullet from pushing back into the case, and in fact on some early pistol cartridges that we routinely describe as have a cannelure, it is really not that at all, but rather a shoulder sharply pronounced around the case, where from the case-mouth down to the bottom of the shoulder the case is larger in diameter than it is below the shoulder. Really the reverse of what we usually call a shoulder on a case. The smaller diameter below the “shoulder” keeps the bullet from being pushed back.

Sometimes, though, the cannelure on cases and bullets are simply for identification, usually for factory in-house ID.

I cannot imagine that the ID cannelures on a bullet would have any noticeable effect on the ballistic performance of a cartridge one way or the other. I suppose that technically an extra case cannelure or two for ID, as on some .38 Special rounds (and others I guess), would reduce the powder space in the case, but the effect should be minimal in the extreme. I am no expert on this subject. If I wrong, someone should correct me but not without a decent explanation of why, please.

#10

Loving the education! Thanks so much.

Jason

#11

A cannelure on a hunting rifle bullet serves two purposes. It can be used as a crimping groove when necessary, and it helps to secure (lock) the jacket to the core which can prevent a bullet from shedding it’s jacket completely, thus retaining a higher percentage of the bullet weight.

As to ballistics, most all Match bullets have no cannelure. Most believe that the act of rolling or cutting a cannelure upsets the balance of the bullet and therefore its accuracy. Also, the cannelure destroys the smooth contour of the bullet which in turn lowers its Ballistic Coefficient.

But, its fair to point out that I’m not sure there has been any comprehensive testing that can put a number on the bad effect. But, competition shooters are not about to test the theories under match conditions so they choose to error on the side of caution and 99 44/100 % use smooth bullets.

Ray

#12

Man, you guys really know your stuff. Thank you.

J

#13

When it comes to lightly rolled ID cannelures, I doubt they have enough adverse effect on accuracy to matter in any “hand-held” rifle sport, but then I can’t really think of any bullets made for competition that have an ID cannelure.

That said, I think that Ray is right on. When it comes to competition shooting and loading for it, I would NEVER use a cannelured bullet for rifles. I am exempting cowboy action shooting in that “NEVER” since we basically use plain-base, cast-lead bullets for both rifle and pistol, and the rifles for regular matches are pistol caliber (if you consider .44 WCF which I personally use as a “Pistol caliber”). The fact is, when you are loading for precision rifle matches, simply why take the chance. You try to eliminate every variable and every questionable feature from your loads that you can. Ray has a very practical approach to shooting that fits the real world very well, where sometimes theory, even if correct, is unimportant. I am basically a pistol shooter but I have shoot both the Bench Rest and Position Rifle disciplines in my life, and always used smooth bullets of match quality. For plinking, or just Sunday shooting with your favoite Lee Enfield, it hardly matters and frankly, I seldom even bother to load my own rounds for any military rifles or lever action hunting rifles I own. Surplus or factory stuff works fine for the amount I shoot them. I exempt my National Match Garand my my 1896 Swedish Mauser from that. I shoot only my own loads, to match quality, in those. They are worth it!

Back to the subject at hand, for Jason, the cannelure on the Israeli bullets that have it is very lightly rolled, and in pistol parameters, especially with the 9 mm Parabellum caliber, I will stock with the idea that it makes no practical difference ballistically or for accuracy. “Practical” is the oeprative word there.

#14

EXCELLENT!

#15

Some cannelures on bullets are to hold a ring of lubricant/sealant within the case.

gravelbelly

#16

Jason - that hollow point with the bumpy nose is a Samson “Dicut Ultra” and is similar to the Winchester SXT in some ways.

The box looks like this:

#17

Fantastic! Thank you DK! One down :-) Haha! There is a lot to learn.

Jason

#18

A cannelure can affect terminal bullet performance, but I doubt that any 9mmP bullet would be driven to high enough velocities or upset in the manner that a cannelured rifle bullet does. The ‘cannelure’ near the nose of your pictured IMI load is interesting and curious (to the best of my knowledge all the powder-blue IMI subsonic loads are 158gr).

Several types of .223/5.56 bullets break, fragment or begin to lose their jacket (“upset”) at the cannelure at a fairly predictable point in the their travel through test media and live targets. The Hornady 75gr OTMs are a good example…the older 75gr standard match projectile (no cannelure) does not perform nearly as well with regards to early/predictable upset/deformation as the later 75gr TAP and TAP T2 pills in the tests I’ve seen and in my experience.

Many current USMIL antipersonnel rifle OTM bullets have a cannelure, but some dedicated match bullets do not. If memory serves this is a main diff. between the Mk262 Mod 0 and Mk262 Mod 1.

The Samson DiCut is advertised as an SXT copy, but like the similarly-touted Fiocchi 123gr JHP it does not perform nearly as well or predictably as the Winchester Ranger SXT bullets (commercial SXT bullets also do not perform like the LE bullet in some cases). I submitted a sample of DiCut to DiFabio’s AmmoLab back in the day, and just one or 2 ‘petals’ would peel back a bit (nothing resembling proper expansion) in gel tests.

Excellent pics, keep the info comin!

#19

WOW! Blown away again by the knowledge of IAA forum members! Thank you, Mwinter!

Jason

#20

That was a very nice gift of you, John. Jason, you are really lucky to receive such a nice collection.

That’s the spirit of a really good collector.

We have something similar here in Norway, we have a forum where ammunition collectors use to list up their collections, and then other will give them duplicates of what they have, so they all grow their collections for free. ( except shipping cost ).

Thanks also for posting the pictures of both the overall round and headstamp.