Israeli 9x19mm explosive bullet AND Glisenti Fiocchi 1916 information

I have transferred a collection of 9mm cartridges and am in the process of entering them into the database. However, I have no information about some of the cartridges, and one of those is this one:

Manufacturer is TZ = T’aaseia Z’vaet (Israel Military Industries)
Year, according the headstamp 1985
Totall lenght 27,61mm
Totall weight 183,7 grain
Diameter “percussioncap”, visible 3,3 mm
Non magnetic (nothing)
Annuluscolor is red, and looks original.
Inside the tip of the bullet seems to be a percussioncap, and white paint.

I cannot find any information about this cartridge at all.
Who has?



Grtz, Jaco

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Extremely interesting!

I wish I could help and am sure others here will be able to. I am dying to know what is too.

Jason

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Prior to the mid-1980s, I don’t recall seeing any Israeli hollow-points in any pistol caliber. Eventually I began to see all kinds if different styles and designs and I was never sure of the origin of the bullets. I don’t remember ever seeing the type pictured above, but the primed case is Israeli. Beyond that I can’t say.

A number of small US companies have made “explosive” rounds from HP bullets. Some of these types of companies have loaded their special loads into Israeli cases since this ammo was very cheap a couple of decades ago. I have no information or even insight or even a reasoned guess on your round, but I would not be surprised if it was something created by some of the small US loaders.

Lew

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Lew, to the best of your knowledge, is this just a primer inserted into the cavity and sealed with paint OR there is something underneath this primer?

normally there are a very small quantity of gun powder behind the primer
but i heard that it not very effective
real explosive rounds (with HE charge) are much more effective but are more rares but exist in pistol and rifle caliber

I have no idea. I don’t intend to open one!

Lew

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jonnyc, Lew, ammogun, I believe one of the companies that produced what I will term the “explosive expansion projectile” was SuperVel. The purpose was to facilitate extreme expansion, not as an “explosive warhead”.

When I was much younger, (and evidently thought I was immortal), we experimented with various mediums behind the primers, and yes, upon impact with a solid enough surface, (wood, for instance), the expansion was extreme and devastating, but wholly unsafe considering some of what we put into those HP cavities.

This could be someone re-bulleting those casings for the same effect. Does that not look like a Speer bullet, or do mine eyes deceive?

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These are my “exploders” so far.

I do not have a cutaway from any of them, beside risks I do only have one of each item.
Beside Velet there is (as far I know) no regular manufacurer of this type of ammo, but because the Israeli one had (as far I can discover) original laquer (and Israël is a special country for such kind of ammo?) I thought it could be original TZ made.

Grtz Jaco

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I agree with Lew Curtis that this is not an original Israeli factory load, but rather a converted cartridge. The semi-truncated projectile has possibly been changed, although I don’t think so. I have a TZ 85 round with the same shape, and the same six nose splits, but the original hollow-point bullet is seated deeper in my round, or a shorter bullet - I believe the former.

If, as I suspect, the bullet is original to the case, it has been removed and converted to the primer activated “explosive” configuration, and then reseated, for some reason not to the original depth.

It is not a CCI bullet, as far as I can tell, although it would not be impossible for IMI to have been using bullets contracted from outside their own company for the original hollow-point loading.

I do not believe that in its current form, with the primer inserted, that it is an original Israeli load. You find these conversions to “specialty” loads all the time, as sometimes surplus ammo is cheaper than surplus ammo on the market, and it pays these small companies making these almost useless explosive, incendiary, etc. “specialty” loads to just convert ordinary hollow-point ball cartridges rather than buy “new” components.

Even Magsafe Company, with their wide line of different, usually shot-filled bullets, converted original bullets in already loaded ammunition, when it saved money to do so.

John Moss

Only one way to find out: Shoot the dad gum thing😂

Here is more of Bubba’s work in a larger calibre.

Old picture.

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Kevin, what’s under the primer, in the cavity?

hello
normally fast burning gunpowder

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Wolfgang, these are Velet Exploder cartridges, my example has a different bullet, look at the six carves from the top

Having offered up a US loader as the origin of this cartridge, I accept it may have a more official origin. I do agree with John that it is most likely a US load. However, I cannot rule Israeli. The red primer seal is interesting, but I have the same seal on Israeli ball rounds with brass primers dated from 1972 to 2002 including a commercial IMI hst round with a similar HP bullet. It would be very simple for a loader to pull the bullet from one of these ball rounds and insert the bullet with the modified tip.

When I checked I found that I have a round identical to Jaco’s, to include the red primer seal and the T S 85 headstamp. I obtained mine when I bought the Dick Manos collection decades ago. It could have a US origin. It could also be Israeli since Dick traded widely.

There are some similar explosives that I obtained from sources with close links to the military. One is posted at https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/portuguese-9mm-para-explosive/2062/6 This one came from a Portuguese ordnance officer who was involved in ordnance development and said it was a military development. He is no longer with us and I haven’t got any other evidence it was a military development. The case is dated 1971.

I have a very similar bullet loaded in a Spanish case with a military hst dated 9-P SB-T 81. This round came from the collection of very widely respected Spanish collector who worked at SB and was once a wonderful contributor to this Forum before he passes on. Printed in pen on the side of the case is:
MORO
FULMINATO
(plus symbol) TNT
MAY 89

Given the source of this round, there is no question that it was a product of SB-T.

Jaco, I can’t even guess where your T Z headstamped round came from! Some of your other rounds pictured above are very interesting. Tell us more about the one with a purple tip and a chinese case and the one next to it with the pink tip seal and the HP case. I don’t think I have seen either of these before.

Cheers,
Lew

Lew,
Dick Manos was a great guy, but some of the items in his collection (I got his 7.62 Tokarevs and 7.63 Mausers) were a bit on the porky side of kosher. I wouldn’t use his items to certify a round a legit military loading.

I agree, and that is why I mentioned the source by name. He also had some truly splendid rounds! I still have a small box of items I haven’t decided on.

The round that Dick had was much more worn than Jaco’s so I suspect he obtained it as it rests in the collection. Otherwise he would have kept the better one.

Cheers,
Lew

PS: You got the 7.63s and 7.62s from me.

I still believe firmly that the Israeli (note spelling - never “Israelian”) round is an American conversion. The red seal is meaningless. These small companies, even Magsafe, converted not just cartridges with new bullets, but also converted the bullets themselves to achieve these “exotic” loads.

Although producing perhaps the largest single number of 9 mm different loadings of any country on earth, I don’t see Israel having anything to do with one of these primer-tipped rounds. I believe at their tech level and quality of manufacture, they could produce a far more efficient “explosive” 9 mm if they had a need for it.

Before California law made them unlawful to possess, I had a number of these commercial re-manufactured fantasy cartridges produced by several makers go thru my hands. In most instances, the bullets were identical to those in known factory HP bullets, save for the conversions which ran from decent quality re-manufacture to pure junk.

Just my opinion, but nothing said so far convinces me of any “official” manufacture of most of these. Please note I am NOT saying there have been no major-factory made cartridges of the explosive type. I have the empty tin for a very well known .45 with no headstamp, although it is painfully evident that Winchester manufactured at the very least the primed cases. I am simply saying that 90% of these specialty cartridges in collections today are commercial and usually a instance of re-manufacture. There are some types from other countries - I have a faux Glaser cartridge made, without license or permission from Glaser Safety Slug, Inc. to copy their product, produced in South Africa, simply as an example.

If someone has real documentation of the “official” production, or even use, of those rounds made from cartridges of Israeli manufacture, I am willing to listen.

John Moss