Israeli 9x19mm explosive bullet AND Glisenti Fiocchi 1916 information

Yes, I had forgotten the routing, just knew I had them! Have I thanked you 100 times yet? If not, I’m sure I owe you a few.

Lew, both the cartridges from HP and the Chinese Norinco came from the 9mm collection of Jan Meulenbeek. Both where in his (old school) hand written notes as “experimental”. The HP should be rare according his books.I have 1,5 meter of paperwork from him too, and I have still to read this all to find mayby more about those cartridges

“Believe” is the appropriate word here! Individuals can and do believe whatever they want. Our recent election provides a world of examples of this. In this case we only have the cartridge with no more information except prereferral data like the use of red primer seals by Israel on ordinary ball ammunition. My personal belief is that I don’t have enough information to have an opinion. I have this round under Israel because I had to log it somewhere in my database and because Dick Manos had it in the Israeli section of his collection! Neither of these facts has any significance. It is kind of like when someone asks me whether I believe in God, I respond “Tell me your definition of God and I will tell you whether I believe in that God”.

One of the things that makes our hobby interesting is that it is, in my opinion, based far more on belief, speculation, theory, assertion, deductions and pure guesswork than it is hard facts!

Jaco, it sounds like you found a treasure trove in Jan Meulenbeek’s collection. Perhaps we will eventually have some hard facts on this “Israeli” round or at least a fact or two that can re-stimulate this topic! The Norinco case round is particularly interesting to me since it is very different from any similar rounds that I recall seeing.

Jon, I am delighted you have that collection and you have always been a great help with my collection. You owe me nothing!

I look forward to your future posts!


Hi Lew
“Believe” is just what it is. Believe. No evidence, no concreet things. So nothing we believe is (perhaps) true, unless proved :-)
I will start reading the massive amount of paperwork from Jan as soon as possible, hoping for some evidence and/ore more information about the Chinese and HP ‘exploder’. Jan has indeed some treasures, like the rare 9 mm Fiocchie Glisenties…But the administration was very poor.
The TZ85, I have him now in my database according de headstamp, Israël, but with a lot of remarks about everything wich is not sure.
With regards, Jaco

In your post above you mention some rare Fiocchie Glisenties would you be so kind and give me some of those Head stamps you are referring to.
I have quite a few Italien stamps but I like to find out wich ones you have in

Forgot to mention above I have a Israelie round with a pointed bullet Armour piercing??? with the stamp
9mmP TZZ 86 plus 2 more with Israel Stamps but
normal bullets

Hi Sherryl.
I have this box, there where 5 cartridges in it, 3 with this headstamp and 2 with another headstamp.



Grtz Jaco

Do you have a picture Sherryl?

Jaco - While there is nothing rare about Fiocchi-made Glisenti rounds in general, you are 100% correct that the .G.FIOCCHI.LECCO.1916 headstamp is a rare bird! It took me a shade over 50 years to find one for my collection of 9 mm Glisenti. I kind of think it was their first headstamp on this caliber. I don’t recall seeing any Fiocchi-made Glisenti with an earlier date, and no other date in this particular headstamp style. Thanks for posting.


sorry I have only a FIOCCHI 1918 and several BP 1914

  • 16 and a LBC 1916 and a series of GFL

I know you have one John, I only have 1 left ;-)

Sherryl, these are the other 2 from that box:

I have different WW1 Glisenties, BP B-16, SMI 16, L.B.C. M.16 (picture), L.B.C. M.17, WESTERN 1917, FIOCCHI 1917, B.P. B-17, MAXIM USA 1917, SMI 17, FIOCCHI 196 and a few with a mis-headstamp P -16, L.B.C. 1


Thank you Jaco for those superb pics,unfortunatly I cannot reciprocate I have to many
problems with this.I have some of the ones you have and the Maxims 17+18I have a series
of GFL pre War and into the War plus some shorts with Italien Stamps.They are a side
interest of mine and I only have about 450 and as a rule I only collect them from 1900 to
1960 anything after that save special bullets is for shooting.I have some boxes I posted them
but there was no interest,thanks again for the pics.

Jaco - It seems mine came from you thru other hands! Can you post a picture of the “P-16 L.B.C. 1” headstamp? I have never heard of it. As you know, I wrote a fairly comprehensive article on the 9 mm Glisenti cartridge (IAA Journal, “The 9m/m Glisenti Model 1910 Cartridge,” March/April 2007 Edition, Pages10-24), and this is one not mentioned. I would like to have a picture of the headstamp and the cartridge in profile to add to my records on this cartridge. This is even the first mention I have had of any Glisenti headstamp not in my article. Of course, even though I have 38 specimens of this caliber in my collection, there are many that I don’t have in my collection, such as SMI 16 and SMI 18, that are reported.

John Moss

The round you point out in your last post should that not be LBC M16 and not P-16
I have the same round LBC M16 the one shown in the above pic. Yes those SMI
do not seem to plenty full If it means anything to you I have one with the stamp
SMI 9M 38 961 could that mean 1961??

Sherryl - two points. Firstly, I simply copied the description of a headstamp mentioned in JACO’s entry as a “mis-headstamp” I meant exactly what I typed.

Secondly, while a very nice headstamp, “SMI 9M 38 961” is NOT a Glisenti round, the topic being discussed here. It is a cartridge of the type Designated 9M38 and intended for the Beretta Modelo 1938 Pistola Mitragliatrice (Submachine gun in American palence). Yes, the 961 marking indicates the year 1961. Leaving the millennium off of the date is common practice in Italy, and often seen on cartridge headstamps as a three-digit expression of the year.

John Moss

I’m now wondering where I got my “G.FIOCCHI.LECCO.1916” from. Either SLICS or an auction, perhaps in a mixed lot. I did put in my log book: “Only two or three known!” Now at least 6 I guess!

Hi John

As requested the pictures of the mentioned misstamps.

I think they had a problem with the bunter.

P 16 must of course be B-P B-16, no question about it I think. The whole bunter (or cartridge) had been skew in the headstamp machine.

The other 2 (I have two identical cartridges with this headstamp!) is discussed in another post earlier last year.

I am convinced the headstamp is correct, ( as well I have noted them in my database as misstamp)

There is no trace of a digit or marker at 3 o’clock, not on both cartridges. I unloaded one, it had a felt disc between the powder and bullet.

With regards, Jaco

Hi Johnny
I had, as I told, a box, containing 5 cartridges, 3 x G.FIOCCHI.LECCO.1916 and 2x FIOCCHI 1916.
2 of these G.FIOCCHI.LECCO.1916 got Lew at the ECRA 2019, and 1 of them is in John’s collection now (I think)
My box came from the collection of a Dutch fellow collector, Jan Meulenbeek, I bought his collection together with my collector-friend Marco Looij when Jan decided to stop collecting… It is very well possible you have one (or more) G.FIOCCHI.LECCO.1916 from the same original box. Depending how many you have, further there are worldwide only 3 known cartridges G.FIOCCHI.LECCO.1916 and possible only one box.
Greetings, Jaco

Thank you for your note,as usual I learned something again and yes
those BPB 14+16 as stated above have extremely poor stamps so have

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Jaco, thank you for that information, I am truly lucky! I wish I could recall where it came from!

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