Italian headstamp existance?


#1

Folks,

I have been told by a few very reliable collectors that the German occupation headstamps of “smi St+ 1 44” exist in both 9mmP and 7.92 Mauser. Is there anyone out there that owns them that could post a picture of either or both?

Thanks,
Dave


#2

At your service

Rgds,
Dutch


#3

Thanks very much Dutch!
Dave


#4

SMI St+ 1 44 exists in 7.92mm Mauser as pictured above by Dutch. I have never seen or heard of it existing in 9mm Para, which does not mean it does not. I would like very much to be put in contact with a collector who can confirm the existance of this headstamp in 9mm.

There is a 9mm Para cartridge confirmed with the headstamp SMI 942 which is illustrated on my want list at gigconceptsinc.com/.

Lew


#5

you should look at here:

http://www.worldwar.it/sito/munizioni/italiane/9-x-19-m38

and here

http://www.worldwar.it/sito/munizioni/italiane/792-x-57-mauser-italiane

Domi


#6

Than I have a surprise for my friend Giovanni. -:)


#7

I have asked my friend Giovanni to keep an eye open for the qrb RM 1945 steel case 9mm. A very few were dug up and I understand his that is pictured is the best. I have never heard of an SMI ST+ 1 44 in 9mmP.

Cheers,

Lew

PS: Nice headstamp Dutch!!!


#8

Historical Query…although SMI had started making German-Style grey lacquered Steel cases before the Italian collapse of September 43, it was only under German control from then to Late 1944/Early 45, when the Tuscany factories were over-run by the Allies. Thus I would surmise that all the cartridges marked in the German Manner ( SMI St 1 44) were for direct Wehrmacht use, whilst those with only a plain SMI 44 were for RSI (Italian) Use, as was the practice before Sept.1943???

or for that matter, any SMI dated 45?

The paucity of examples of SMI 43 and 44 dates on Steel cases (of any calibre, it seems that 9x19 was the most common),
seems to show that most of this ammo was virtually delivered straight to the consuming units and used.

Any comments on my suppositions?

BTW, RSI units, besides 6,5mm Carcano ammo, also used large quantities of 7,9 ammo with German supplied Small Arms, all over the Northern Italy Sector, especially in the East against Tito.

As to the “RM” marked cartridge ( in German Style) RM was an inspector at Bologna (Govt) Factory in the late war period…so was this ammo for Italy(RSI) or for Germany? Bologna ceased production in late 44, when British and New Zealand troops occupied it.

The Confused supply situation in the RSI from 1943 to 1945 give rise to a lot of Questions of who made what for whom, when and why?

Something for the aficionados to ponder…

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#9

DocAV, There is no evidence I have seen that SMI ever made a 9x19mm in Steel case and there is only a single specimen known of an SMI 9x19mm cartridge from WWII.

Cheers, Lew


#10

Well, Lew, SMI were making steel cased 6,5x52, 8x59RB, and of course 7,9mm as well as bigger calibres, so a 9mm steel case is not out of the question…especially in the 1943-45 time period.

Just an observation…

Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#11

The only info I have about SMI production of 9M38 cartridges is in a recent article published by the Armi e Tiro magazine

The writer says that SMI started production of 9 mm M38 ammo in 1942 and 2there’s “no evidence of later lots” , so the 1943-44 and 45 SMI’s should be very rare


#12

DocAV, I agree that it is possible that a steel case SMI 9x19mm could show up somewhere tomorrow-perhaps on this thread. I learned a long time ago to never say something doesn’t exist.

I only know that I have no evidence of any 9mm Para/9M38 production at SMI before 1950, with the exception of the single round (probably from a single production lot) in 1942 with a brass case. Some of you will remember 40 years ago when Alessio Grimaldi, the first Italian collector I encountered, was truning up Italian cartridges that totally changed our understanding of what the Italians had done during the war. That was the source of my 9x19mm headstamped qrb RM 44 which I was told was impossible and obviously a fake when I first acquired it in the late 1960s.

As Marco indicated, I seriously doubt any SMI 9x19mm production during WWII except for the 1942 lot, but test lots of steel cases later in the war is not only possible but not even surprising given the other steel case production done by SMI.

Now, with any luck, somebody will write in with a photo of a full box of 9M38 rounds headstamped SMI St+ 1 44!!! I wish!!!

Cheers, Lew


#13

Hi to everybody
Apologize me for the delay, but I have seen onlytoday this interesting post
I divide the answers and I apologize me in advance for my English…
To how much it is known, thin to today the only production from the SMI of cartridges 9M38 are that quoted of 1942, you must be remembered that in 1944 the same one was busy,
What the same one has also produced the 8 Bredas and the 6,5 Carcano in steel (of these last caliber exists a little production in coppered steel , probably produced for the tha Regia Marina) it is not fundamental. The Pyrotechnic one of Capua also having also produced a lot of calibers in steel and many experimental but it results has produced a solo lot of 9M38 in brass case in 1943 and perhaps another (not confirmed) in 1942.
The problem for the Italian ammunition is that they exist little (almost anybody) documents of the epoch, the existing firms still (in truth 2) doesn’t give news for which all the hypotheses are valid but, to mine modest seem, for any study and collection it is necessary to found only themselves on the samples discoveries and not on the conjectures.
Besides first to cause of September 8 a lot of ammunition ended in Germany, then after 1945 calibers were adopted “allied”, finally the legislation, today for other partly modified they have not surely helped the Italian collectors to cause the same they have to recover good part of the samples on the Foreign market (particularly Germany. U.S.A. and GB)
For the “qrb” the problem is complex, for the German nomenclature her “qrb” corresponds to the Pirotecnico di Bologna, but a problem exists; while the Pyrotechnic one was destroyed in October '44 and exist a version with steel case that hace headstamp '45.
Or it doesn’t deal with of the Pirotecnico di Bologna (Baschieri and Pellagri???) or the same could have sub contracted the job (as happened for the 6,5 WWI with the S B) to a small establishment.
Other hypothesis is that of an establishment of the Hugo Schneider located in “Trentino Alto Adige” (Italian Region in the North) of which however don’t succeed in having more precise information
As it regards the 7,92 Mausers Italiane the known lotteries they are those presents in the already quoted Link to Worldwar
Two 7,92 Kurzes exist produced in brass case only ,very probably to level of prototype.
With the occasion I wanted to give ago news to the friends collectors that some months, she has become “Official” the Cultural association C.E.S.I.M. (Collezionisti e Studiosi.Italiani Munizioni)
it foresees to the address munizioni.eu
Talk to you soon
Giovanni


#14

This is the 8 x 33 “qrb” head stamp Giovanni speaks about.

I am sorry, but I cannot translate; Or it doesn’t deal with of the Pirotecnico di Bologna (Baschieri and Pellagri???) or the same could have sub contracted the job (as happened for the 6,5 WWI with the S B) to a small establishment.
Who or what is Baschieri and Pellagri.

That brings me to an other unknown 8 x 33 head stamp. Made in the same “Italian” style. Pirotecnico di Bologna ?
It is a gas pressure round.



Any ideas?

Dutch


#15

Dutch,
Giovanni is saying that the pirotecnico of Bologna could had sub - contracted the production to other factories that used the same hds used by P. of Bologna.
If so,the p. of Bologna hds could had “survived” to the factory destruction

Baschieri & Pellagri is a well known italian factory that produces gun powder and shotshells . I have never seen nothing but shotshells made by them but everything is possible and they surely had the capacity for producing metallic cartridges


#16

Thanks Pivi,

Do you know something about the P.B. head stamp?

Rgds


#17

Baschieri & Pellagri did infact make some metallic cartridges. I have a 32 S&W made by them and manufactured prior to 1940 with a BP headstamp (as opposed to PB). It is possible the factory was geared up for war Production though I have never seen a sample of any military cartidges from them. Their factory was destroyed in 1940 and rebuilt by 1941 so it is plausible is all I am stating.


#18

Baschieri & Pellagri would have a “BP” or “B&P” headstamp. A headstamp (part of it) with BP would indicate Pietro Boragine, Inspector of ammunition at Bologna Factory in the 1930s, as well as other Italian Military Plants. The rest of the headstamp would be “B-xx” ( 1930s year). Whilst the italian Navy and Aiorforce used .32ACP (7,65mm), no Italian Armed Forces used .32S&W, not even the Police or Municipal Guards…so it could only be a “Civilian production”, and that would have been Baschieri & Pellagri rather than the Military or big Private contractors. It must have been a special order, because all my information is that B&P made shotshells, shotshell Powder, and possibly Mortar propulsion cartridges for the Italian Military ( a modified shot-shell).

The Other possibility is “BP (D)”, which iwas a large Cointractor of Military and also civi;l ammo.
A Photo of the queried Headstamp would be helpful.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#19

@DocAV

For the head stamp please look at page 1.

Rgds


#20

Good morning to everybody
The establishment of the SMI produced and delivered ammunition to the Germans up to September 23 rd 1944, for which she could not have produced in 1945
The firm Baschieri and Pellagri of Marano, during the WWII it was specialized in the loading of the bullets, and in the “rivers use” of the “war surpluses”. at the end of 1943 it had around 600 employees
Surely she was used for the assemblage of balls, powder and cases coming from the German establishments
From interview effected by one partner of C.E.S.I.M., to an ex worker of the establishment it results that in October 1944 the employees of the firm was brought to Bologna near the rests of the, practically destroyed, establishment of the Pirotecnico di Bologna to recover the survivors machineries and to bring them near the Baschieri (they don’t exist, in fact, cartridges with headstamp B-45)
Interesting the photos of the two 7.92 Kurz “Italian” unfortunately don’t exist, for now, sure documentations on the subject
Also the exemplary PB, from me photographed, it was I deprive of primer.
I don’t have news of use “in fight” of such cartridges
Giovanni