Italian intermediate power cartridge, 1921?


#1

hello

I found following picture

does anyone know what ammunition type it is? Any other info will be appreciated as well.


#2

The cartridge used was an experimental 7.35x32 with 6.5x52 case base dimensions.


#3

Fede,
do you know any data regarding bullet mass and muzzle velocity?


#4

this is a foto

Picture & data from ECRA/ECDV (from Woodin Laboratory)


Exptl. Assault Rifle Rounds
#5

Bullet weight is 134.5 gr (8.71 g) and reported muzzle velocity 600 m/s.


#6

Cartridge Looks like a “parallel” Development of the French 8mm Ribeyrolle Short cartridge ( the “R” in “CSRG”, and also the engineering part of the CSRG group.)

Interesting find… Too bad the “Wooden heads” in the 1920s Italian Armed Forces “poo-poo’ed” the Ideas ( as happened in may other countries…)

Interesting that the M1921 is marked “Senza Raffica” ( No Full Auto Burst). Ammuniiton economy, perhaps?

Doc AV


#7

[quote=“DocAV”]… the “[color=#FF0000]Wooden[/color] heads”…[/quote] is not the right word…


#8

:-D :-D :-D


#9

Actually the word for this Cartridge is “Woodin” since the specimen pictured is from the Woodin Lab collection and is a sectioned round with a complete casehead. It was found in some items from FA.

Sure would be nice for a box of these to turn up. I understand from Bill Woodin that there may be other case variations of this round.

Cheers,
Lew

PS: Great Thread and great round. I have never heard of this interesting round before, or the weapon. Many thanks!


#10

Fede, norby973,

thanks for the additional information/photo.


#11

I came across mention of this one quite a while ago, since my web article on the history of assault rifles and their ammunition (quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm) includes the following:


#12

Wooden heads, : “Teste di legno” is a term in Italian denoting a completely “Thick” person, usually in higher Authority, and comes from ancient usage… it featured in a Book title about the 1866 Naval defeat of Italy by the Austrians at Lissa " Navi di Ferro, Teste di Legno" ( Ships of Iron, Heads of Wood) referring to the Naval High Command at the time.

Privately the term would have been the Italian Equivalent of “Richard Cranium” which good manners prevents me from expressing. Aussies will immediately understand my Pun.

Regards,
Doc AV


#13

“Blockhead” would be an older English equivalent, somewhat out of fashion now.


#14

“Aussies will immediately understand my Pun.”

As would most American Middle School students.


#15

Tony, Looks like the a sectioned specimen survived and found it’s way to the appropriate home, for which we are all fortunate.

The ECRA people spent considerable time at the Woodin Lab over the past few years documenting items for their great database. Because of the ECRA investment we all have knowledge of some of the treasures of the lab. I have been to the lab often over the years but had never seen this round-I guess it wasn’t in the 9mm drawers.

Thanks to all for the postings!

Cheers,

Lew


#16

I agree, “richard cranium”, in its short form, is the right way to describe them


#17

I just received this scan from another gentleman, an advanced student of Italian weaponry. Oddly, the text apparently refers to a 7.65mm cartridge, not 7.35mm.


(Credit to Messrs. Pignato and Cappellano, Le Armi della Fanteria Italiana 1919-1945).


#18

[quote=“Lew”]Tony, Looks like the a sectioned specimen survived and found it’s way to the appropriate home, for which we are all fortunate.
[/quote]
Indeed we are!

Assuming that it was introduced in 1921 as the gun designation indicates (the reason I have a small doubt is that Frankford didn’t test it until the 1930s by which time it would have been old history) it would have been an incredibly advanced design for the time. Practically identical to the 7.92x33 Kurz with only minor differences in calibre, bullet weight and velocity.


#19

And the 1921 7.65x35mm Swiss “Pistolengewehr”/Furrer? :-)

theswissriflesdotcommessageboard … SGjETbnaUk

Brian


#20

[quote=“bdgreen”]And the 1921 7.65x35mm Swiss “Pistolengewehr”/Furrer? :-)

theswissriflesdotcommessageboard … SGjETbnaUk

Brian[/quote]

Round-nosed bullet without the same performance at range - they seemed to be still thinking in terms of a super-SMG.