I've found these in the dunes in the Netherlands


#1

Hello Everybody,

My name is Segouta, and I’m from the Netherlands. I’m new on this great forum.
Recently, I’ve found two bullet casings, and I need some help identifying them…
I hope you guys can help me. I will send you some images.

The fist one is my biggest problem. Because I don’t know what the Z at 12 o’clock and the VI at 6 o’clock mean. I assume that the 19 and the 38 form the year 1938? Please help me, I want to know where this cartridge comes from so bad! And what are these 4 lines that devide the thing in four equal parts?

It was easier for me to find something out about this one (below). The p-code at the top suggests that its a German cardridge, right? And the S with the little star means that it’s a brass one, isn’t it? (I’m new in this world of ammo, so I’m not sure about these things…) The 37 at 9 o’clock says its made in 1937? Is that right?
And what is that 13 at 6 o’clock telling? Is that some kind of production number or something?

I hope you can help me! Thanx!

Greetings,

Segouta


#2

First of all, welcome to the forum.

Your first round was made by; Zbrojovka Brno, Brno, Czechoslovakia
In June 1938.

The second one is German made by; Teuto Metallwerke G.m.b.H., Osnabrück
The 13 th case lot of 1937.

Both are 8 x 57 Mauser

Kind regards,
Met verzamelaars groeten

Dutch


#3

The four lines on the first case have no special meaning. Some countries used them; Poland is another example. Possibly the purpose was to ensure symmetric deformation of the case head during stamping. Possibly it was simply cosmetic.
As always in ammunition there are exceptions. But this is the basic answer.


#4

Unfortunately I am not your opinion.

The Germans used it to indicate a cartridge for using in machine guns.
In 1900 an additional “M” was used.
Some ware in 1916 it became standard, Cartridge for MG and rifle.

Rgds
Dutch


#5

Dutch, whilst I agree that the use of “Sector Lines” on Imperial German Cartridges indicate MG Use…your examples shown are Patrone 88, by the way, NOT Patrone S, this did not apply to other Cartridges such as the Austro-Hungarian, and French, or Later the Czechoslovak or Polish Cartridges…These rounds with Sectors simply indicate a separation of the various Letters and Numbers, and have no relationship to purported “MG use alone” or even “Universal Use”. The Use of Sector Lines was even present in many countries in Black Powder Cartridges from the 1880s to WW I.
IN any case, the Germans dropped the use of Sector Lines after WW I.

Now the Cartridges; The First “Z” cartridge, is NOT “Brno” but the Former Plant of J.Roth (Bratislava) bought out by ZB in the Mid-1930s, and then transferred from Bratislava to Banka Bystrica in Central Slovakia. After the German Occupation and Division of the Czechoslovak State, the Factory became Part of the “dou” code, BUT through-out all this period (1939 to late War) the “Z” style Headstamp was maintained for Ammunition going to NON-Wehrmacht German and Export Customers (such as Sweden)…the Major Non-Wehrmacht customer was the SS, both the Security side, and the Waffen SS. The SS initially took over all Pre-1938 ammo from Czech Stocks as well. THis ammo was uised in all combat activities of the Waffen-=SS ( Invasion of Poland, 1939; Low Countries, France, 1940; Greece & Yugoslavia 1941, Soviet Union, 1941. Large Quantities of “Z” 7,9 is still appearing as Surplus out of Belarus and Ukraine since the late 1990s ( still in original Czech-style ammo crates.)

So the Finding of “Z” 38 VI (6th Month) in the Netherlands, would suppose the Wartime (1940) Presence of SS Troops in the Area, either in Combat or Training; also, it could indicate Royal Netherlands Army use Post-W II ( left over stock.)…the 7,9 Cartridge was still used in Holland by both Army and Police into the 1950s.

The Other Cartridge, with Pure German Wehrmacht Ammunition markings ( Factory (Patronenfabrik) 369; Lot 13, Year 1937. S* indicate Brass Case; This Most Probably came to the Netherlands in 1940, and was either fired then, or subsequently…1930s German ammo has still been found in storage in many ex-German occupied countries as late as the 1990s.

What is the History of this Particular Beach? (Wartime and Post War?)

Doc AV


#6

The German code dou. represents the facility at Povazska Bystrica in Slovakia, not Banska Bystrica. (I’ve omitted several accents; check wikipedia). There is a mnemonic device here in that one form of the corporate name of this facility resulted in the maker’s code PS. Jack


#7

This is not correct.
It became only a different definition.

This is correct if you make a difference between the Czech and German style headstamp.

But the German style “Z” headstamp was also made for the German Wehrmacht. See label.

Rgds
Dutch


#8

[quote=“dutch”]First of all, welcome to the forum.[/quote]Thank you!

[quote=“dutch”]Your first round was made by; Zbrojovka Brno, Brno, Czechoslovakia
In June 1938.[/quote]Al right! I didn’t know that. Where did you find that?

[quote=“dutch”]
The second one is German made by; Teuto Metallwerke G.m.b.H., Osnabrück
The 13 th case lot of 1937.[/quote]That is what I found out myself indeed. But what is a case lot?

[quote=“dutch”]Both are 8 x 57 Mauser[/quote]I’m sorry, I’m really not yet into the world of guns and that kind of things. Is a Mauser a type of gun? And what does 8 x 57 mean?

[quote=“JPeelen”]As always in ammunition there are exceptions. But this is the basic answer.[/quote] Thank you, JPeelen! And how do you know all these things?

[quote=“dutch”]Some ware in 1916 it became standard, Cartridge for MG and rifle.[/quote]So the cartridges with lines were just used for machine guns? But is was used for a Mauser also?

[quote=“DocAV”]IN any case, the Germans dropped the use of Sector Lines after WW I.[/quote]So I can say my cartridge isnt used in WW2?

[quote=“DocAV”]Now the Cartridges; The First “Z” cartridge, is NOT “Brno” but the Former Plant of J.Roth (Bratislava) bought out by ZB in the Mid-1930s, and then transferred from Bratislava to Banka Bystrica in Central Slovakia.[/quote] What is ZB?

[quote=“DocAV”]THis ammo was uised in all combat activities of the Waffen-=SS[/quote]But you just told me this ridges weren’t used in WW2? I don’t understand it.

[quote=“DocAV”]Large Quantities of “Z” 7,9 is still appearing as Surplus out of Belarus and Ukraine since the late 1990s ( still in original Czech-style ammo crates.)[/quote] What does the 7,9 mean?

[quote=“DocAV”]What is the History of this Particular Beach? (Wartime and Post War?)[/quote]I actually haven’t found these cartridges on the beach, but in the dunes. But that might be a very Dutch way of speaking. The dunes are a large terrain near the coast, from the beach to approx. 7 km from the sea. So the terrain is very hilly and there are a lot of trees. Near the spot where I found them, there is this big house, with an enormous garden. The terrain I found these cardridges was part of this garden back in the war. During World War II first Dutch troops were stationed there, and later, it was confiscated by the Germans and then the military police. During the last weeks of war, and after the war, there were Canadians and the Interior Forces.
The spot I found the cartridges was on a hill, in a kind of a wood.

[quote=“Jack”]The German code dou. represents the facility at Povazska Bystrica in Slovakia, not Banska Bystrica.[/quote]All right, but what is dou. ?

Segouta


#9

Here you find the „Z“ Headstamp.

cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes#Z

Teuto Werke in Osnabruck made 17 lots in 1937. Yours is the 13th.

For an explanation of this calibre look;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92%C3%9757mm_Mauser

We only discussed the markings. Your cases were probably from WW2

Some people call this round 7,9, 7,92 x 57, 8x57, 8mm Mauser. All the same round.

“dou” is the German code from Waffenwerke Brünn AG, Werk Povazska Bystrica, CSSR

Rgds
Dutch


#10

As you can see from this discussion about your 2 cases, history of ammunition is a very diverse field.

In the Netherlands there is an active community of collectors. See: www.nvbmb.nl


#11

Segouta
While the experts cover the gory details, I’ll cover one of your basic questions (myself being one of the rookies in this crowd). It seems a little confusing/daunting at first, but after some short exposure it becomes easier to follow.

Most metric and European cartridges use 2 designating numbers and sometimes a letter to identify the cartridge (R=Rimmed, B=Belted, RB=Rebated, no designation = rimless).
The first number is the nominal bullet diameter, the 2nd number is the nominal case length (both in mm).
Examples: 6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57 (aka 8mm Mauser after Paul Mauser the German rifle designer/manufacture), 7,62x54R, 7.62x39, 9x19 etc

Here on the other side of the pond, it can get real confusing, as we use all sorts of names and numbers, often without any rhyme or reason. 30-06= 30cal adopted in 1906, 30-30 Winchester= 30cal originally loaded with 30gr of smokeless powder developed by Winchester, 35 Whelen (30-06 necked up to 35cal by Col. Whelen), etc.

The British on the other hand use a system all their own, but again it becomes easy to pick up on.


#12

[quote=“dutch”]Here you find the „Z“ Headstamp.[/quote] Thanks for that link!

[quote=“dutch”]Teuto Werke in Osnabruck made 17 lots in 1937. Yours is the 13th.[/quote] Al right! But there is no indication in what month of the year 1937 it was made?

[quote=“dutch”]“dou” is the German code from Waffenwerke Brünn AG, Werk Povazska Bystrica, CSSR[/quote] And why “dou”, is that an abbreviation for something?

[quote=“JPeelen”]As you can see from this discussion about your 2 cases, history of ammunition is a very diverse field.[/quote]Indeed. And I didn’t expect so many reactions! thank you all!

[quote=“JPeelen”]In the Netherlands there is an active community of collectors. See: nvbmb.nl[/quote]That’s nice. I’ve a question about something I read on their website. Because they say that it’s forbidden to own (is that the right word?) a bullet, even the used ones. But I actually found some with my metal detector, near the spot where I found the cartridges. These were 9 mm and 5 mm bullets. But is it really forbidden to have them in possession?

[quote=“Tailgunner”]The first number is the nominal bullet diameter, the 2nd number is the nominal case length (both in mm).[/quote]I’ve measured them, and that’s exactly correct! They are indeed 8 mm x 57 mm!

[quote=“Tailgunner”]Mauser after Paul Mauser the German rifle designer/manufacture[/quote] He has designed more then one type of gun?
Is the Mauser a gun like this one?

Segouta


#13

Legal questions are always tricky, especially in view of possible consequences. Regarding the situation in the Netherlands you should ask the people at NVBMB. Terminology is important. A bullet is the projectile only. A cartridge is made up of a case, a primer, the powder charge and the bullet.

Paul Mauser died in 1914. The gun shown in the photo was not designed by him, but what the would-be soldier is so violently operating is a bolt mechanism named Model 98 and designed by Paul Mauser for the German Gewehr 98 of 1898. The gun shown could be of serveral makes (Czechoslovak, Spanish, Belgian come to mind) and is post WW1.


#14

A lot of members here in the forum are also NVBMB members.

If you are interested to join the club, you can send me a PM.

Rgds
Dutch


#15

And don’t worry about a few fired empty cases. That is no problem.


#16

[quote=“JPeelen”]Legal questions are always tricky, especially in view of possible consequences. Regarding the situation in the Netherlands you should ask the people at NVBMB. Terminology is important. A bullet is the projectile only. A cartridge is made up of a case, a primer, the powder charge and the bullet.
Paul Mauser died in 1914. The gun shown in the photo was not designed by him, but what the would-be soldier is so violently operating is a bolt mechanism named Model 98 and designed by Paul Mauser for the German Gewehr 98 of 1898. The gun shown could be of serveral makes (Czechoslovak, Spanish, Belgian come to mind) and is post WW1.[/quote]I think with that type of front sight protector and stock screws, it can only be a VZ24, a 1924 model Mauser made in Chechoslovakia. Have one myself so thought it looked familiar…
-Soren


#17

Hello Everybody,

I went to the same spot again, and I’ve found two more cartridges (beside a few other things like nails, coins, screws, random pieces of iron, huge bars and things like that.)
Here are the pictures.


So this one is from Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen G.m.b.H, Werk Sebaldushof, Sebaldushof, Germany, made in 1936, out of brass. Is this right? And the lot number is 5. But how do I know how many lots were made in that year in that factory?


And this one is from Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen G.m.b.H., Werk Röderhof, Germany, right? Made in 1937, out of brass, and with lot number 1. Again, my question is, how I can know how many lot numbers were used in this year in this factory…

I hope you can help me!

Segouta


#18

[quote=“Segouta”]
Again, my question is, how I can know how many lot numbers were used in this year in this factory…

I hope you can help me!

Segouta[/quote]

http://home.scarlet.be/p.colmant/index_3.htm

choose the factory code on the left and you will have a Exel sheet with all lot numbers produced by years.

Domi


#19

Just some other cartridges, found in the dunes today…

  • The first one is from Rheinisch-Westfälische Sprengstoff A.-G., Werk Nürnberg-Stadeln., Germany, made out of brass, year 1940, and lot number 4.

  • The second comes from Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen G.m.b.H., Werk Selterhof, Germany, made out of brass, year 1938, and lot number 10.

But now the real problems begin:

These are not the same size (these are both 8x56 instead of 8x57), and they have a kind of a rim, they are a little more wide with their rim.
And I dont know what the marks mean. I think that they are made in 1944 (pretty late, isn’t it?), might be in july? (The roman VII).

But what are these R, this weird other mark with 3 lines, and this L? And from what country are these casings? HELP!

Segouta


#20

The last cartridge cases you show are .303 British, not 8 x 56R. You can check the headstamp code list on this site for the maker’s code RL. As it is stamped here a “broad arrow” (British government ownership mark) has been interposed between the R and the L. Jack