"kam" Headstamp 7.92x33


#1

Hello,all
In my experience collecting 7x33 kurz I have only seen one box lable for “kam” headstamped rounds,this was on a box where the actual rounds were loaded by “wa”.Was “kam” only a supplier of cases to "wa"For the five (or so) lots it made in 1944,or did they load there own rounds?
Thank you in advance for your reply.
P.S
Anyone who may have a “kam” headstamped 7x33 for sale I would be very interested.


#2

First of all, welcome here at the Forum.

Yes, you are right, only 5 lots of 1944 with a “kam” head stamp are known.

They first loaded them. Later in 1944 when the soviet troops came near, all components were transported to Germany, and loaded by other company’s.

btw, “eej” had also loading facility’s for 7,9 x 33 and produced them!!

Rgds
Dutch


#3

Thank you for clearing that up for me Dutch,that woud explain the abcence of a dedicated “kam” label, also thank you for the great pic.I have been looking for just one of those rounds (unsucsessfully) for quite a few years,and to see the whole lot number set is amazing! great collection.
Thanks again!


#4

P.S was not aware of eej production in 7x33 were they a late (1945) ,or limited caes lot manufacturer?


#5

No case production.

Rgds,
Dutch


#6

Wow! great pic!, I have never seen one of those lables before,do you know how many lots they loaded?, Also ,did you have very much difficulty collecting the kam lot numbers?They seem to me to be the most “rare” of the headstamps,any ideas on why that may be?

Thanks!


#7

Sorry, it is the only known label

Rgds


#8

Dutch,

I know the Kurzpatronen 43 m.E. 1945 eej 1 and 1945 eej 4 boxes.

Also I have the box Pistolenpatronen 43 1944 kam 3 in my collection with kam bullets,kam cases and Zdh. 30/ 40 1943 ad 392 .

Norbert Berg
How can I boot pictures up ?


#9

Norbert, welcome in this great forum.

For all collectors who don’t know him.
He is the leading expert of 8x33 Stg. ammunition in Europe

Hope to see you in Saint Louis.

Rgds
Dutch


#10

[quote=“eej44”]Wow! great pic!, I have never seen one of those lables before,do you know how many lots they loaded?, Also ,did you have very much difficulty collecting the kam lot numbers?They seem to me to be the most “rare” of the headstamps,any ideas on why that may be?

Thanks![/quote]

eej started the production after the middle of January 1945,because the naming Kurzpatronen 43 m.E. is already in the first lot.If there was a lot before naming Pistolenpatrone 43 m.E. the first lot cant get the naming Kurzpatronen 43 m.E. Bevor this date the name Pistolenpatrone 43 m.E. was used also in 1945.
aux and hla changed the name with the 5 lot in 1945.
I add a picture from the 1945 aux 4 lot.

I know up to now 4 lots from eej with fva cases. I add the picture from lot 4.Look the first become known use of a powder 1945 mog 1 and primer also from 1945 by Kurzpatronen 43 m.E.

Norbert Berg

I am always looking for 8x33 ammo and information about the development and production of the Pistolenpatrone 43 m.E.


#11

eej44
Factory kam in Poland was operated by Hugo Schneider AG, Leipzig: code wa. So the connection is no surprise.

Also note that on the labels the charge weight is given, contrary what you will find on ordinary rifle or pistol ammunition labels. This is because there existed no standard charge weight (like 2.85 g for sS Patrone in brass cases) for Kurzpatronen 43. This is because the factories had great difficulty to manufacture the new propellant according to specifications.

The German system was VERY different from what we are used to today. Today, an individual charge weight for ervery powder lot is used to obtain the required ballistics. In those days, the propellant manufacturers were required to mix their internal lots in such a way that the prescribed charge weight (2.85 g in above example) gave the required muzzle velocity while not exceeding the pressure limit. The ammunition manufacturers always loaded the same charge weight into a given cartridge type.
As said above, this did not exist for Kurpatrone 43 and hence the charge weight on the label.


#12

[quote=“JPeelen”]eej44
Factory kam in Poland was operated by Hugo Schneider AG, Leipzig: code wa. So the connection is no surprise.

Also note that on the labels the charge weight is given, contrary what you will find on ordinary rifle or pistol ammunition labels. This is because there existed no standard charge weight (like 2.85 g for sS Patrone in brass cases) for Kurzpatronen 43. This is because the factories had great difficulty to manufacture the new propellant according to specifications.

The German system was VERY different from what we are used to today. Today, an individual charge weight for ervery powder lot is used to obtain the required ballistics. In those days, the propellant manufacturers were required to mix their internal lots in such a way that the prescribed charge weight (2.85 g in above example) gave the required muzzle velocity while not exceeding the pressure limit. The ammunition manufacturers always loaded the same charge weight into a given cartridge type.
As said above, this did not exist for Kurpatrone 43 and hence the charge weight on the label.[/quote]

The exeption to this rule (charge weight on the label of Pistolenpatronen 43 m.E.) is dou.They never give the charge weight on the label.I add a picture of the 1944 dou. 13.

Besides the most common charge weight is 1,57g.

From the 37 known rdf powder lots 1944 are only 6 with 1,58g, and the rdf 4 with 1,54g.

From the known 10 mog lots are only one with 1,52g an one with 1,54g.

From the know 4 kfb lots are two with 1,57g and one with 1,56 and one with 1,58g.

All 5 dvdn lots always 1,55g.

The wal 1 lot 1,52g.

For my book about the development and production of the 7.9 Kurzpatrone-

I look for the following charge weight :
1944 rdf 30,31 and 33; rdf 1942/1 and if known rdf 1943/3; also all 1945.
1944 dvdn 1 and 2 (3,4,5 known)
kfb 1944/1 ( 2,3,4,5 known)
wal 1944 ( only wal1 known)
mog 1944 ( 9 known)
mog 1945 ( 1 known)

In the meantime I found the powder lot 1942 rdf 3 on the 1942 aux 4i box and the 1942 rdf 5 on the 1943 aux 6 wooden-box label.
The 1944 mog 9 I found on the 1945 de 13 wooden box label.

I like pictures of the missing lots.

Norbert Berg


#13

I am not sure of the exact rifle caliber (as I am new to this) but I found some “kam” headstamp bullets with “kam” (at the 12 0’clock position), st+ (at 3 0’clock), 48 (at 6 0’clock) and 43 (at 9 0’clock). My assumption is the this is 1943 vintage. I have about 20 rounds on stripper clips. Can anyone let me know what I have? Thanks for any help, as my father brought these back from WWII. I have some other shells as well.
Thanks,
Barry


#14

Since there are only five lots known in 'kam" 7.9 x 33 mm M43 Kurzpatrone cartridges, all from 1944, your
cartridges are more likely the fairly common 7.9 x 57 mm for such weapons as the K98k, G-43, MG 34 and MG 42.
This was Germany’s full length rifle and machine gun cartridge from 1888 (in the .323 bullet diameter from circa 1905) until the end of WWII. Actually a little beyond that as they were used for a short time by various branches
of the police of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland (Federal Republic of Germany; West Germany) once they were allowed to rearm in the mid-1950s. They were not used for long in the role, being replaced by the FN-FAL and then the G3, the latter known commercially as the HK91.

When inquiring about cartridges like this, it is best to show a picture or at least give dimensions. Then, a positive answer can be given. My answer is based solely on the headstamp you have reported as being on your cartridges.


#15

Thank you for your response. I will upload pics, but my first try was unsuccessful. If anyone can help on uploading images I will get them up. This cartridge may have been from my grandfather who was in Germany in WWI so I would like to find out more. I appreciate your help.
Barry


#16

Headstamp, another pic to follow.

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#17

Comparison with a 7.62x39. I appreciate your comments, there are a couple of other different headstamps in this cartridge.


#18

John Moss is correct. Your cartridge is a 7.92x57mm, not a 7.92x33mm. The second number in the caliber designation refers to the length of the case. The 7.92x33mm has a case that is 6mm shorter than the 7.62x39mm case, and 24mm shorter than the 7.92x57mm case.

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your post.

Cheers,
Lew


#19

Barry - the cartridges are not from your grandfather, from WWI. They are from WWII. Following is a complete
explanation of the cartridge headstamp:

kam - case manufacturer’s code, assigned to Hasag Eisen- und Metallwerke G.m.b.H., Werk Skarzysko-
Kamienna, Poland. Translation: HASAG (Hugo Schneider A.-G.) Steel and Metal works (factories,
in the plural), from factory at Skarzysko-Kamienna, Poland.

St+ - This marking indicates that the case is fabricated of steel, and the case is of the improved design
with the case-mouth of the same thickness as that of a brass case.

48 This is the manufacturer’s lot number for the fabrication of this group of cases. Lt numbers varied
in the amount, but generally, I believe, would be 100,000 pieces or more.

43 This is the last two digits of the date of manufacture of the case - in this instance, 1943.

Please note that on German headstamps of this period, the headstamp information pertains only to the case
manufacture. You cannot, generally speaking, be positive of who loaded the actual cartridge, and whenm without having the box label. This Polish factory did load ammunition, as well as make cases, so it is possible
that it was loaded by the same company that made the case. Unless the case was made very late in 1943, it is also likely that it was loaded in 1943, although again, you can’t really say without the box label.

I hope this information helps you sorting your cartridges out. Again, considering all the known lots of the short-case 7.92 x 33 mm cartridge made for the German Assault Rifle (Sturmgewehr) that were MADE BY THIS MAKER
are dated in 1944, it would indicate that your cartridges are the standard 7.9 x 57 mm service-rifle cartridge. By the way, the first number in the caliber designation stated in this system indicated the nominal caliber of the cartridge was 7.9 mm while the second figure, 57, is the length of the empty cartridge case expressed in millimeters.


#20

Your pictures and the response from Lew were both made while I was typing my last response. Sorry for any duplication of information. One of the great things about this Forum is that there are many, many collectors willing to help out with information, and to confirm or correct information already given. Sometimes the result
is exactly that more than one answer will appear in very quick succession. That is certainly not a fault with the Forum, just a reflection that there ARE many hands out there to help one out. None of us know everything about
ammunition - that is we use this great resource, the IAA Forum.

I join Lew in welcoming you here, and hope that if you have any further questions, even about this particular subject, you feel free to ask them. We all start somewhere in pursuing our interests in ammunition. Perhaps the cartridges your date brought back, which makes them very special for you (it would for me!) will start you on the road to cartridge collecting. If so, the people you meet and the friendships built from the hobby will be more rewarding than the the collection itself!