Hello everyone, I would assume this has been answered before but I cant locate it in the archives. I was wondering the history and purpose of the green flatnosed bullets commonly found in 45 ACP ammo. I believe they were made by a company named KWT. I have heard that they are armor peircing? What calibers were these bullets available in? Who actually loaded and made them? Are they still available? Does anyone have a photo of a sectioned bullet? Again thanks for educating me and others.
Do a Forum search for “KTW,” the correct initials sequence, or “Kopsch” or perhaps “cop-killer bullets.” These have been fully covered on this Forum in the past. I have not tried any of those searches, but they should net something. I am not good with the search engine on this Forum, with most of the words I try bringing up over half of every thread ever on here. “Green Teflon” might be another search description.
If you or others don’t find anything, I am sure you will still get an answer here. If nobody can find it, I will provide some information, but it is a long story, and no sense repeating it here if we don’t have to.
Posted these couple months back. KTW, in almost every caliber. Brass? projectile. Box is 9 mm, cutaway .357 mag
Here are some common KTW loads, mostly all coated in Green Teflon, although later around 1980 when the KTW company was purchase by North American Ordnance, they apparently switched the coating to a Nylon substance of the same color. the black one is a .44 automag, and some automags were also in green:
The ogives above are mostly examples of the later style from NAO, and some of the earlier ogives were more pointed, with darker green coating. There were allot of bullet shapes, headstamps, and case types.
The KTW story is a long one. I have 8 pages of text, and 8 pages of photos in my book, and that’s just the basics. The old thread that was a big KTW thread in this forum is here:
The user names are all replaced with the word “historian” which is because those are all old archived posts from the previous version of the forum.
I hereby ask the administrators of the Forum to change the title of this thread to reflect the proper initials of
the ammunition being discussed, which are “KTW.” It will make it much easier to search, I think, in the future,
should one wish to do so.
Thanks John I did a search with “no matches found” but I had the initals in the wrong order. Checking KTW I was able to access a number of archive hits. Thanks again for educating a novice.
Remchester - look at how many times us “old-timers” are found to be incorrect on this Forum, and
proved so, including me (too darned often), and you will see that there is so much to know in the
ammunition field that we are all novices. As you continue to post on this Forum, we will learn as much
from you as you do from us.
The KTW story has grown every year. There are far more KTW loads then were ever produced by KTW. Many collector loads were made by Dr.K. over the years and he likely made more money with these than he did with the actual ammo sales for tactical use.
ALL OF THE ORIGINAL BULLETS WERE HAND COATED BY PAT BURNS OF AKRON OHIO. There were many types and colors and there was no record kept at the time.
Pat, I and Dr. K. discussed this several times. Dr.K. is gone, Pat is still living but does not remember a lot of detail about the early work as it was not important at the time and it was a long time ago.
This is my previous post with some additional information. 2/3rds or more of KTW ammo in collections are collector items made by Dr.K. and others or outright fakes.
This just gets better and better.
Dr.K was the coroner for Lorain County Ohio (near Cleveland) and an often seen face at the Ohio gun shows especailly when they were in the Cleveland area.
ALL of the early experimental and production items were coated at FALHOLT Corp. at Cuyahoga Falls Ohio AND ALL done by a fellow who is an off and on IAA member but who prefers not to be bothered about this stuff. I have bothered him enough!
Many experiments were tried during the “teflon craze” including coating shells for “arctic” use and coating dummies to extend the life. There are examples of DS projectiles with teflon coated cores and various colors of sabots as well. Headstamps in many cases mean nothing as NPE and surplus ammo available at Northeast ohio gun shops and shows were used as needed.
The .35 and .350 Remington loads were popular in Ohio police arsenals at the time due to autoloading rifles being chambered for these calibers. Thus the production in these calibers.
Dr.K was very early in the idea of using powdered metal technology in this way.
This ammunition was designed for police use. The military applications had nothing to do with KTW.
The story has changed over the years as politics became involved.
The original flyer is pretty clear about the matter.
[quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]There are far more KTW loads then were ever produced by KTW. Many collector loads were made by Dr.K. over the years and he likely made more money with these than he did with the actual ammo sales for tactical use.
I have a .22 pokey blank to this end. I was told that there were very few (less than 10) made just as experimentals for whatever reason. Anybody else ever see one? (I know only one other collector with a few of them). It looks just like a .22 pokey, but with some resin material in the case mouth (no crimp).
Is that the 350 Remington Magnum? What was the autoloading rifle chambered in 350? Any pics of those rifle KTW loads? They would be nice ones for the 35 cal section of a collection.
“There are far more KTW loads then were ever produced by KTW.”
Unfortunately this type of thing happens way too often. Somebody buys a whole batch of legitimate components from the estate of a designer or experimenter and suddenly all sorts of “previously unknown” experimentals, test cartridges, etc., begin to show up. If you watch the gun auction sites enough you will see these (in my opinion doubtful) items appear periodically. The stories are usually entertaining, however I wouldn’t pay anything for the rounds.
The thing with “unknown” KTW loads is that they did do some oddball experimental loads or variations which are scarcely ever seen, and then of course there are some fakes which people make. I actually made a fake 7.62x25 KTW load on purpose (and labeled it as such in my display/book) just to demonstrate the kinds of things people do, especially with that .30 caliber bullet from the .30 carbine loads.
The only “original” photo I have even seen of the 35 Rem, or .350 Rem mag KTW loads was on page 34 of the Jan/Feb 1975 issue of the French magazine Cibles:
It looks like the same original Kennertium bullet used in the .38spl loads was used in the 35rem and 350rem mag (same diameter), but that’s just an assumption. Those cartridges with the original smooth-taper pointed projectiles (Kennertium or Tungsten) are pretty rare for the .38spl today and I don’t have one.
“I actually made a fake 7.62x25 KTW load”…Urrrgggg.
For demonstration purposes only as they say. I wish there was a real version!
[quote=“jonnyc”]“There are far more KTW loads then were ever produced by KTW.”
Unfortunately this type of thing happens way too often. Somebody buys a whole batch of legitimate components from the estate of a designer or experimenter and suddenly all sorts of “previously unknown” experimentals, test cartridges, etc., begin to show up. If you watch the gun auction sites enough you will see these (in my opinion doubtful) items appear periodically. The stories are usually entertaining, however I wouldn’t pay anything for the rounds.[/quote]
Not the point. Dr. K. offered to sell me his “collection” 3 times. Each time it was bought by someone else. Once Wayne Markov bought it. My basic lack of interest was based upon the fact that it was not military related and further that he continued to make items for the collection so there was no end to it. Any "one of " rarity which sold well he would make more of. During the initial production of his invention he knew nothing about “cartridge collectors” and the fellow who was coating the bullets ( not loading cartridges) collected US military gear NOT commercial ammo. Consequently there was no documentation of the early work. Once a design was established and it became a business paper was generated.
The huge amount of “post production” specimens was made by Dr.K. and others unknown who learned that teflon could be bought in a spray can in a self curing form.
Dr.K. once asked me if anyone would be interested in .50 cal KTW cartridges. I told him that there would likely be some buyers but I have never seen an example and have no idea if he ever made any. He was a bit early for the rise in shooting the .50 BMG in a rifle or I am sure that there would be plenty of .50 KTWs around.
After the business was deflated Dr.K. continued to make small lots and "one of " items for shooters and collectors. He survived a couple of BATF legal problems. There was very little in his estate as he sold off most while he lived. I bought a second hand lot of experimental projectiles in 25mm and several cases of the 25mm Bushmaster cases from a consulting job which he had done with the company which made his bullets in bulk.
To my knowledge no lot of components were puchased from his estate.
Thank you. Explains why you are so sensitive to and knowledgeable about this. What did you use for a bullet and how did you coat it ? Details, details .
Those fakes have a way of getting unfaked in the future.
Some time ago it seems that I read that the IAA had a rule about special markings on such creations. Do you recall that ?
Yeah, I just put a .30 carbine KTW bullet into a typical early 1980’s Polish 7.62x25 casing and labeled it as fake. The casing has “fake” etched into it(so in the future it wont be mistaken), and the index number written on the case corresponds to a database listing explaining what it is. I made it just to show what can be done, and to raise awareness that the .30 carbine KTW bullet is an oft used projectile for KTW fakes, like being loaded into a 1970’s 7.62x51 case, etc…
“To my knowledge no lot of components were puchased from his estate.”
For what it’s worth, there are many designers and many estates. Many components out there to be put together as fakes and sold as legitimate experimentals.
And BTW, I did not assemble the “Tokarev KTW”.
Yeah, like what Jon said, you misunderstood his use of the quotation reply. He was lamenting about how I had made a fake of something that both us wished there were real ones of and also because of concern over future potential mistaking of the one I made. He didn’t load it, I did - for my display at SLICS as a prop.
Got it - glad to see there is still plenty out there for John to work with if he wants.