Kynoch 6.5x50SRmm Arisaka charger


#1

I got this newspaper-wrapped mystery at a show. Upon unwrapping, there were 2 chargers filled with “7.92 MM 44” 8mm Mauser rounds. One, which looks like a Mauser charger, says “Kynoch”. Is it real, did Kynoch make Mauser ammo?



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#2

Vlad, he brass clip looks like a 6.5 mm Arisaka to me.

Kynoch certainly made 7.9mm.

The hs you mentioned sound very Canadian if I recall right.

The experts on all this will come up with solid details I assume.


#3

I’m not qualified to pass comment on the ammunition but the charger is definitely for 6,5mm Arisaka. A large number of the rifles were bought by Britain from Japan in 1915 when we were greatly increasing the size of our army due to world events. There was concern that our domestic factories would be able to equip these new troops. As it happened the Arisakas were not needed as home production got into gear and there were enough SMLEs for all.

The Arisakas were used for training, given to the Royal Navy and finally sent to Russia as assistance to the anti-revolutionists after 1917. Britain made large amounts of 6,5mm ammunition to accompany the rifles, hence the chargers which were made by a number of producers using both brass and steel bodies.

The second charger looks very much like a 7,62x51 NATO one so I say that the chargers are not original to the ammunition. Whatever, it’s a good find as these chargers are anything but common although a few have been coming out of the Baltic States recently.

Peter


#4

I appreciate that you put a caveat on your post regarding the ammunition Peter, but whilst your history of the British Arisaka rifles is very broadly correct the story of the ammunition is not quite right.

In fact the Arisaka rifles were very much needed. The first shipment of 50,000 was acquired from the French and these were issued to the Royal Navy in late 1914, which enabled their Lee-Enfields to be released to the army to make up for the large losses in the retreat to the Marne. The second shipment in early 1915 came direct from Japan together with Type 38 ammunition components that were loaded by Kings Norton.

Japan also supplied large numbers of Arisakas to Russia and it was the Tsarist Russian government that requested Britain make the ammunition. Since the bulk of the rifles Japan had sent to Russia were Type 30, the Russians required the older round nosed Type 30 ammunition. It was made by Kynoch and Royal Laboratory and in total 559 million rounds were made between February 1916 and September 1917. Chargers were made, as you say, by a number of suppliers as well as Kynoch in a variety of finishes.

By the end of 1915 Ross rifles were available to replace the RN’s Arisakas and Lee-Enfields for the New Armies so we began shipping the Arisakas to Russia, 128,000 being sent in total by the end of 1916.

There were about 17,000 Arisakas and several million rounds of ammunition in store at the end of the war and these ended up via a rather dubious route in Finland.

If anyone would like to read the full story of the British Arisaka rifles and ammunition, PM me for details of my book (End of commercial break)

Regards
TonyE


#5

Vlad - You asked if Kynoch made Mauser ammunition. Kynoch were one of the world’s major producers of military cartridges until WW2 and made just about every calibre of military round on contract for governments around the world. As well as ball ammo, their expertise was in the design and manufacture of special purpose ammo, tracer, incendiary, AP etc. They also made the chargers to go with the ammunition.

You should obtain a copy of one of their catalogues from the 1930s (re-prints readily available) to see the range of ammunition they offered for military contracts.

Regards
TonyE


#6

Thanks, Peter & Tony, both. Peter is correct about the 2nd charger, it is Seymore “SEY” stamped 7.62x51. I guess the only original component of this purchase was the newspaper wrapping (love reading old advertisements).


#7

The ammunition itself is Canadian, not British. The dates on the headstamps are not the actual dates of manufacture. The issue concerning these dates has been covered several times on the Form, and there is still some disagreement about when they were made. Regardless, it was a contract for clandestine purposes and the dates are spurious.


#8

In fact the Arisaka rifles were very much needed. The first shipment of 50,000 was acquired from the French…

Why did France have 50,000 of these Japanese rifles ?


#9

[quote=“TonyE”]I appreciate that you put a caveat on your post regarding the ammunition Peter, but whilst your history of the British Arisaka rifles is very broadly correct the story of the ammunition is not quite right

If anyone would like to read the full story of the British Arisaka rifles and ammunition, PM me for details of my book (End of commercial break)

Regards
TonyE[/quote]

Tony,

I stand corrected. When we’re next in the same room make sure I don’t leave your presence without a copy of your Arisaka book under my arm. I have a serious lacunae in my library.

Happy collecting, Peter


#10

[quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]In fact the Arisaka rifles were very much needed. The first shipment of 50,000 was acquired from the French…

Why did France have 50,000 of these Japanese rifles ?[/quote]

My book explains it all in some detail, but the essence is that as the Germans approached Paris in 1914 the French asked the Japanese to send troops to Europe. The Japanese said they could not but offered to sell France 50,000 rifles and 20 million rounds of ammunition. This was accepted but it seems France decided to offer the rifles to the British in exchange for more British troops in France. See the memoirs of Raymond Poincare and Marshal Joffre. The French had even gone as far as producing a manual in French for the Arisaka.

Regards
TonyE