Kynoch 9mm Tracer


#1

This is one probably for Lew or John but all comments welcome.

I have a Kynoch 9mm tracer that has a magnetic cupro-nickel envelope and a normal Kynoch commercial headstamp “KYNOCH 9mm.P”.

I thought this may have been one of the rounds used in the 1939 British SMG “hosepipe” trials using Suomi guns and 100% tracer ammunition. However, the bullet weight of the Kynoch ammunition in these trials was 108 grns.

My bullet weighs 89 grns so I suspect it is from the later 1942-44 trials and is a version of design DD/L/14021. These had a spec. weight of 88 grns and a CNCS envelope. The only difference is that the tracer cavity washer on mine is copper and the spec. shows brass.

It is a much better produced bullet than the 1961 red tipped tracers that Kynoch made.

All thought welcome.

Regards
TonyE


#2

Tony - I am responding only because you mentioned me by name and I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring your posting, since I don’t have any helpful answer for this. My main comment would be “wish it was mine!” I ran right down and weighed my round with a similar bullet and it weighed the same as other Kynoch ball rounds - of course the tracer would weigh much less with such a light bullet. I did that because it appears the round is unreognizable unless weighed or the bullet pulled, looking just like ordinary ball. I am sure you have checked Labbett already for any comments there, so I didn’t bother.

Great round, great pictures. Lew will probably know all about it. Sorry I couldn’t help.


#3

Thanks John.

This actually came from Peter’s collection.

Regards
Tony


#4

Tony, My tracer with this headstamp weighs 153gr while the ball round weighs 187gr. If the ball is a 124gr bullet than the tracer bullet would be about 89gr. Mine came from Gordon Conway. He told me he found a few (3 or 4 or 5) when he cleaned out the tracer room at Kynoch. They were loose behind one of the sets of shelves which is probably why the survived. There is no tip color. The Woodin lab has a round that looks identical, but with a red tip. It is mounted on a board along with a sectioned bullet. Since it is mounted on a card it is not reasonable to weigh it.

This bullet looks like drawing DD(L) 14021 on gigconceptsinc.com/Brit-tracers-WWII.html which is estimated at 88gr. The drawing is dated March 1942. The drawing shows a copper washer at the base and the alternate jacket as CN coated steel. We must have different DD(L) 14021 drawings since mine says it is a copper washer. The companion drawint DD(L)14021A also shows a copper washer!!!

Many thanks for the photo. I have never seen the disassembled round!

Lew

I have never seen a drawing, or any data on the tracers for the Suomi trials in 1939. Is there a drawing??? I’d appreciate a copy of the source data for the 108gr bullet for the trials. I will post it on my website with the other bullet drawings if that is OK with you.


#5

Here is a cutaway and loaded round of the British pointed bullet tracer from the same time frame. The cutaway was from Freddy M. and the loaded round from Herb W. The loaded round weighs 139 grain which would imply a 76gr bullet which is consistent with the estimated weight of DD(L) 14022A. The cutaway has the same thick primer cup of 14022A. The cases are headstamped B^E 43 9M/M.

It is interesting that two of the rounds from these trials have shown up, but 14021A and 14022 have not been reported to exist as far as I know. The rounds (particularly the RN Kynoch headstamped tracers) are very ordinary so anyone who has a round with the KYNOCH 9mm.P headstamp should weigh it just in case. The same is true of the pointed bullet bullet rounds. They are unusual, but quite a few are in colletions and anyone having one, no matter the color of the bullet jacket should weigth them. My pointed bullet ball round with GM jacket weighs 185.5gr and the one with the CN coated steel jacket weighs 181.6gr. The tracers should weigh under 145gr.

Tony, I’d like to use your photo of the 14021 bullet on my web site, with credit of course. Please let me know if that is OK!

Cheers

Lew


#6

Hi Lew

By all means use the pictures. Those were only done on my scanner, but I will gladly take a decent picture of the round for you for your site.

My remarks about the weight of the Suomi trial ammo and the brass/copper closure disc came from Peter’s notes, not from the drawings, so I took those at face value.

I presume you have a copy of the O.B. Proc on those trials? If not I will copy you.

Regards
Tony


#7

Thanks Tony!

I have the O.B. Proc. Thanks also for the use of the photos. The ones on the Forum are fine!

Lew