Kynoch headstamp?


#1

I have this headstamp on a .45" Peabody-Martini cartridge and I believe that it’s a military loading made for Romania. It’s designated the .45 m/79 Romanian Carbine and it has a caselength of 40mm.
Despite the rather misleading headstamp all the references that I’ve managed to find suggest that this cartridge was made for Romania by the British company, Kynoch. The same headstamp is also found on the .45" Romanian Peabody with it’s 49mm caselength.
The only variation in the headstamps is the number appearing at 6 o’clock so I would suggest that this indicates either a month or lot number.
The ‘79’ is found on all of these headstamps so I am assuming this is the model number - m/79.
The ‘81’ is also constant and is probably the year of manufacture.
But my question is why the ‘M’? If these are made by Kynoch why isn’t there the usual ‘K’?
Does anybody have any packaging for these cartridges, in either calibre, that might clarify their manufacturer?
It’s been suggested to me that the ‘M’ could possibly be for Ludwig Mandel of Austria.
Any suggestions?


#2

I have two Kynoch drawings for the Roumanian Martini but unfortunately neither shows the headstamp. Like you, I have always believed this to be a Kynoch product and the “M” is simply the abbreviation for “Model” so the headstamp reads as “M 79”. Kynoch would have headstamped with whatever the customer ordered.

What is the case length of your round? Drawing 38-210 dated 7 May 1890 is titled “Peabody Martini Cartridge” and has a case length of H 2.315 L 2.295.

Drawing 38-11 dated 19 July 1890 is titled “Roumanian Gatling Martini Cartridge” and has a maximum case length of 2.360".

Do not take too much notice of the drawing dates as cartridges were often redrawn when another order was received.

Regards
TonyE


#3

Hey, I got a reply! My carbine round has a 40mm caselength Tony.


#4

Oh well, that is the end of that idea! 40mm is 1.574 inches so neither of the drawings apply.

Sorry cannot help further apart from agreeing it is probably Kynoch.

Regards
Tony


#5

Tony, I think your suggestion of “M79” as per the customer’s order probably answers my question. I’m satisfied with the identification of the actual cartridge - I believe that Kynoch made cartridges in three caselengths for Romania; 40mm, 49mm & 59mm.
My short-cased round is dimensionally the same as the Westley-Richards .500/450 No1 Carbine sporting cartridge (so I’ve been told!) so I’m rather surprised to see this military headstamp on it.


#6

The letter “M” and date “79” refers to “Arma Md. 1879”, wich was the roumanian designation of the Peabody-Martini M. 1878. With different dates same headstamp is to be found in four different case types and these are all factory made by Kynoch:

  • .45 Roumanian Martini-Peabody & .45 Gatling Machine Gun (59 to 60 mm case lenght)
  • .45 Roumanian Peabody (49 mm case lenght)
  • .450 Westley Richards No. 1 Carbine (39,5 to 40 mm case lenght)
  • .434 Seelun (51 mm case lenght)

#7

Fede,
Thanks for that very helpful information…I don’t suppose you have any packaging at all to support the manufacture by Kynoch?


#8

The Kynoch drawings show that what they call the Peabody-Martini and the Roumanian Gatling Martini are two different rounds, differing both in length and rim diameter.

Attached are drawings of these two and the 11mm Seelun. I don’t have a WR No.1 Musket drawing to hand, but will find it later.

Regards
TonyE


#9

Both the .45 Roumanian Martini-Peabody and .434 Seelun were found in Kynoch cartridge boards. I’m not aware of any packets.


#10

Can I make an observation about the typeface? It looks untypical of Kynoch and looks more Eley. Well the “M” does. Just a thought, probably nothing.


#11

Hi
For long version :
Old draw made in french copy 1899 from Kynoch Birmingham 1885
http://www.histavia21.net/Old-Munavia-21org/AMMOS/Pn7im/pn7-03.jpg
Other :
http://www.histavia21.net/Old-Munavia-21org/AMMOS/Pn7im/pn7-02.jpg
Bsrg, Dan


#12

Thank you gents for all the input so far, and especially for the superb drawings, but the issue that I’m trying to clarify is whether cartridges with this headstamp are indeed made by Kynoch. So far nothing’s come to light to prove this but there’s got to be something out there somewhere surely? Vince’s comment must raise some doubt, as must the apparent lack of any packaging. Surely if these were a Kynoch product a Kynoch box would have turned up somewhere?
I am pushing this enquiry as I’ve been advised by several very highly esteemed experts in this field off-forum who insist that there is no evidence whatsoever to support the manufacture of this headstamp by Kynoch.
If we accept that Kynoch did indeed manufacture ammunition for Roumania in 11.43 x 40mm, 11.43 x 49mm & 11.43 x 59mm does anybody have a picture or cartridge with a definitive Kynoch headstamp, i.e. with a ‘K’ in it?


#13

Jim
Your answer might lie with the museum curator at the Birmingham proof house.
If anybody has information it will be them now, having exhausted the possiblities on here.
Only trouble is they are a bit stand offish about enquiries from mere mortals like collectors (so I am told). Probably understandably because they must get a lot of rubbish enquiries.

You will have to build up your profile a bit and say you are researching this contract etc drop the IAA name a few times etc

Vince


#14

The earliest Kynoch order books held at the Birmingham Proof House are from 1923 onwards.

I shall be there in the near future doing further research so I will see if I can find out anything.

Regards
TonyE


#15

[quote=“TonyE”]The earliest Kynoch order books held at the Birmingham Proof House are from 1923 onwards.

I shall be there in the near future doing further research so I will see if I can find out anything.

Regards
TonyE[/quote]
What about actual cases from that era Tony? For comparison. not necessarily from that calibre or contract just typefaces, layout etc. the sort of gut feeling thing. I don’t think its going to get much closer than that.


#16

It seems odd to me that during c. 1886 Kynoch was making cartridge boards using Eley made cartridges.

There is also a SFM drawing showing this headstamp (No. 6069 dated july 28, 1897). Cartridge illustration was made from a sample and is described as “Cartouche Remington Egyptien à balle forte” but in fact is a .45 Roumanian Peabody (49 mm case). The name of the one who sent this sample is hard to read (Serlis Ta??an) and I can’t make any of it. Maybe someone knows better.


#17

[quote=“Fede”]It seems odd to me that during c. 1886 Kynoch was making cartridge boards using Eley made cartridges.

There is also a SFM drawing showing this headstamp (No. 6069 dated july 28, 1897). Cartridge illustration was made from a sample and is described as “Cartouche Remington Egyptien à balle forte” but in fact is a .45 Roumanian Peabody (49 mm case). The name of the one who sent this sample is hard to read (Serlis Ta??an) and I can’t make any of it. Maybe someone knows better.[/quote]
Hier this one ?

Bsrg, Dan


#18

[quote=“Fede”]It seems odd to me that during c. 1886 Kynoch was making cartridge boards using Eley made cartridges.

There is also a SFM drawing showing this headstamp (No. 6069 dated july 28, 1897). Cartridge illustration was made from a sample and is described as “Cartouche Remington Egyptien à balle forte” but in fact is a .45 Roumanian Peabody (49 mm case). The name of the one who sent this sample is hard to read (Serlis Ta??an) and I can’t make any of it. Maybe someone knows better.[/quote]
Not entirely odd. At that time the two were the biggest British manufacturers but the whole ammunition industry was very incestuous. They would quite happily sub contract out work if it suited them to do so.
The situation remains the same today, perhaps even more so but on a more global scale. Many examples exist of ammunition made ostensibly by one manufacturer but actually made elsewhere.

The fact that Wesley Richards name appears in the discussion serves to muddy the water a little bit. I don’t think they had any part in this particular contract but they were very big players in the Martini era and made or had made millions of rounds yet as far as I know never had an ammo making facility of their own.


#19

On page 172 of the book “The Birmingham Cartridge Manufacturers” by C W Harding there is this headstamp under Kynoch “Examples of headstamps on military ammunition for overseas contracts”.

Hope that is of help.


#20

Nicely concluded Simon, thank you.