Kynock 455


#1

What was the use for this 455 blank with a .644 brass washer on it? Thanks; Jack


Identification help needed with an unusual Kynoch .455
#2

Movie black & Kynoch is spelled with an H


#3

Pete - what is the purpose of the washer - to make a tighter fit to prevent primer set-back? I notice that the primer doesn’t appear to be crimped, and that sometimes uncrimped primers will move out of the pocket as far as the flash-shield allows if there is no powder charge. Don’t know about with blanks. If you know what it is for, let us know.


#4

Thanks for the info and spelling lesson!(isn’t blank spelled with a N)


#5

Ouch! You guys are getting snippy.


#6

Since this type of “blank” (formerly called “black”) is also found on .450 revolver cartridges by Kynock/Kynoch, I have to ask what documentation exists that identifies it as a movie blank? I’ve seen it in ordinary blank boxes (no over-label indicating “Theatrical blank”) and I’ve seen normal looking blanks, without the washer, in boxes labeled for theatrical use.

Chris P.


#7

I can’t tell from the picture. Is the washer just slid over a 455 blank and soldered on or something? Or is it formed with the “washer” out of one piece of brass. just wondering
Kim


#8

If you can imagine a break top revolver of the Webley type the extractor is a star which comes up out of the middle so this washer would effectively prevent it being loaded in a revolver.

My guess would be that the washer allows the blank to be used in a different calibre weapon. Given the fact that its British and quite old the one that comes to mind would be a .450 Martini.

It wouldn’t give much of a bang but it would give a puff of smoke. In the silent film era that is all that would be needed.


#9

I ran this question in issue 463 of the IAA Journal but got no response.

I’ve heard these blanks called (1) movie blanks (2) tool blanks (3) sub-caliber blanks, by various collectors, but have not seen any documentation, factory drawing or definitive box label - hence my question to Pete.

I’ve seen them in a box but can’t be sure they were original to it (it was a normal Kynoch red/green blank box and they were fitted in every other slot).

To answer Kimzter’s question, the washer is fitted over the case though on some it is a tight fit.

The washer varies in diameter on .455 from 0.644 down to 0.595 and possibly others. On .450 they seem to vary between 0.640 and 0.600 in diameter.

As to the date, judging from the headstamp, I suspect they are not that old, possibly WW2 or later.

Vince makes a good point about their use as a blank for another caliber weapon. While the variations in the washer diameter are unusually high for that sort of use, and washer is far too small to sit at the back of a .450 Martini chamber, I am reminded of the Kynoch Adaptor cartridges used in the .303 Adaptor. These short, wide rimmed, cartridges fitted into the front of the adaptor. Was the Kynoch adaptor made in other calibers apart from .303 - such as the .450 Martini ??


#10

[quote=“Vince Green”]My guess would be that the washer allows the blank to be used in a different calibre weapon. Given the fact that its British and quite old the one that comes to mind would be a .450 Martini.

It wouldn’t give much of a bang but it would give a puff of smoke. In the silent film era that is all that would be needed.[/quote]

Vince,

It is surprising how much of a wallop a small blank cartridge can make in a larger calibre gun. 75mm Tank guns, such as used on the Sherman and Churchill, can give interesting results if a fired case is fitted with an adaptor for .303" blanks. When fired the noise is loud enough to scare the hell out of spectators in the vicinity. I have also fitted adaptors to fire .303 blanks in 105mm and 6 Pdr guns with a similar result. The 13 Pdr guns used by the Royal Horse Artillery and the Royal Navy for demonstration “Field Gun Runs” use .303 blanks.

gravelbelly


#11

Just an old story about Kynoch .455 blanks. The man who used to start the races at our school sportsday circa 1970s used an old .455 Webley revolver and blanks exactly like the one in the picture (minus the Washer).
I used to gather the fired cases up after it was all over. An early sign of things to come.

So they were made like that right up into the 70s. Then I had another thought. That Kynoch box should have a series of numbers stamped on it somewhere, possibly on the inside with what looks like a rubber stamp. Its the manufactures batch information etc but within those numbers is a date if you can interpret it.


#12

Another possibility, .455 varients have an unusually thin rim. Could the washer be used primarily to thicken the rim?
Again I am thinking in terms of it being used to adapt the cartridge for use in something other than a .455. But what ?

We could be going round in circles with this one for a very long time.


#13

[quote=“Vince Green”]Just an old story about Kynoch .455 blanks. The man who used to start the races at our school sportsday circa 1970s used an old .455 Webley revolver and blanks exactly like the one in the picture (minus the Washer).
I used to gather the fired cases up after it was all over. An early sign of things to come.

So they were made like that right up into the 70s. Then I had another thought. That Kynoch box should have a series of numbers stamped on it somewhere, possibly on the inside with what looks like a rubber stamp. Its the manufactures batch information etc but within those numbers is a date if you can interpret it.[/quote]
Was it an unmodified revolver that could have fired live rounds if they were chambered? I just can’t imagine someone walking into a school with a Webley these days. My school had a cheap pot metal revolver that took .22 Flobert blanks. It had to be kept locked in a safe when it wasn’t in use.


#14

Chris I think I might have found your calibre. A lot of civilian Martini rifles were chambered for 500/.450 no2 and not .577/.450. This was because of the involvement of the Wesley Richards company. The 500/.450 no2 was “their” calibre. The rim diameter is .663" but the rim on that particular round was very pronounced, the base of the cartridge was only .576"

Its not quite there but its getting closer. It depends on how tight a fit they wanted.
Its also entirely possible that a film company would have the civilian rather than the military version of the martini.
Thats if we are still running with the possibility that it might be a movie blank?
Externally the rifles were identical and up until the time that the calibre became obsolete there were probably a good number of the civilian versions on the market and quite cheap.

It doesn’t appear that a lot of the ex military Martinis passed into civilian hands after they were superceeded by the .303. Thats probably because there wasn’t any identifiable use for them in UK. That may have been different in Australia or Canada. Most appear to have gone abroad for issue to native troops. Virtually all the ones we are getting at the Arms Fairs these day have been repatriated.

Falcon Yes it was a totally unmodified Webley. Our school sportsdays were held on Kings College playing fields in Ruislip and this great old guy used to turn up in a bright red blazer to start the races.


#15

I was going on what I was told by an un-named Englishman that it was a movie blank (got the pelling, nopefuly gorrect this time!) no other proof.

Have 2 variation in my collection .648" /16.47 mm and .644" / 16.37 mm “washer” dia. otherwise same as JackMack’s.

Love to know what it is fo-sure.