What is the latest date known on 8 x 57 J ( M 88) military cartridges?
Production of this ammunition can’t had been stopped in 1905 when 323" bullets were adopted.There were a lot of M1888 rifles still in use during IWW
What is the latest date known on 8 x 57 J ( M 88) military cartridges?
Pivi, there is plenty of German WWI production. The specialists certainly will know more.
Well,according to “the german codes” website,the latest date on a M88 military cartridge should be 1916.Can it be right?
The latest head stamps I know of are;
S 2 16 S67 CN bullet.
G 3 16 67 made with a CN and Tombak bullet.
So 1916 is right…thank you
My latest date with a FMJ RN .318 (8x57J) round is “dnf St+ 66 43” in a lacquered steel case. I know this is shown as a hunting cartridge, but I have not seen any documentation on it. If made as a hunting cartridge for the Luftwaffe survival drilling, then it is a military round - a forager load - regardless of what it was intended to be shot at. If made to sell commercially as a hunting round (I would doubt that with its military headstamp) then it is, of course, a commercial round and would not fit your question.
In the early to mid 1930s the factory at Bratislava (Pressburg), Czechoslovakia produced the 7.9 m/m J loading in clips for the German model 1888 rifles and carbines. Both the headstamp and clips bore the M-in-a-semicircle mark of that facility. JG
I am in the process of scanning my collectiom of 7.9mm clips/chargers and I just did this one a couple of days ago. Does anyone know what country they were intended for or were they for the commercial market?
In the book from Brand, Hamann, Windisch, are some cartridges printed showing hunting rounds.
Also is written
The packet of Circle M (Bratislava, Czechoslovakia, soon to be “Z” --when owned by ZB ) is marked “Cartouches” which would indicate for a French Language market; also the “Manliches” stamp obviously is supposed to mean “Mannlicher”. Strange for a Czech made item, as they were familiar with the spelling of “Mannlicher”…Unless of course the wording was applied by some one else ( say in central Africa etc…maybe Ethiopia???) where “French” was the Lingua franca of trade ( aside from Arabic).
If it was stamped “Cartuchos” ( Spanish) I would have said Equador, as Circle M also supplied the Equadoreans with 7,9J ammo that late, for their pre-WW I M88 rifles.
The cartridges themselves are almost identical to those supplied to Equador and also to some Balkan Customers.
I doubt that they were supplied to Turkey, as by this time, the Turks would have converted all their Gew88/05 to ensure use of “S” ammo, either by rebarrelling or by general refurbing…in anycase, the Turks only received “S” type 88/05s…there is no indication of any original packet loading 88s in Turkish hands ( either from WW I or Post-WW I acquisition).
AS to the latest makers of “J” type ammo, the Chinese made this cartridge into the revolution ( 1945-49) but generally, production is thought to have finished sometime in the early 1940s, when Japanese expansion caused removal or destruction of various Chinese Ammo Factories. A reveiw of the massive “History of the Chinese Ordnance Industries” (in Chinese) will reveal the exact situation of this.
All the references I have to German Luftwaffe Survival Drillings is that they were in 8x57JR or JRS; and that besides commercial soft point ammo supplied by “dnf”( code for Dynamit Nobel) with commercial headstamps (probably pre-war ammo), the Luftwaffe also had repacked Dutch Patroon Scherpe Nr.23, which was the 7,9x57R cartridge, that was compatible both by design and loading, for use in Drillings.(and being FMJ, could be legitimately used for Self Defence ( Geneva Convention/Hague 1899 Rules)
A photo was shown in an article in a “Guns” magazine back in the late 1960s dealing with an original Luftwaffe Drilling “brought back” from North Africa, complete with case and ammo packets.
The use of “Rimless” J type Sporting ammo was more likely for a Haenel type Hunting rifle ( built on a M88 or M88/1907 mechanism) by officers etc.
As to the “military” headstamp, it could be a “special batch” ( dnf did a lot of “specials” during WWII) or as mentioned, a Post-WW II recycling effort, either official or non-official, to supply hunting ammo for the “foreign” market (ie, Occupation Forces officers going to Hunting Lodges in Germany)
I had a mint cased Luftwaffe M.20 go thru the shop years ago. So many good customers wanted it that we set a price, and then had a drawing to see who got it. I admired my boss, Nathan Posner, as a very rich client seeing the drawing couldn’t be bothered with it, so offered twice the amount we were asking, which was already a lot of money (commensurate with the market but still a lot of money). Mr. Posner simply told him to put his card in the jar for the drawing, because he didn’t have enough money in the world to buy it any other way. It was a honor to work for a man of eithics!
At any rate, the gun had a box of pretty standard RWS 1930s or early 1940s sporting ammunition in it. Wish I had photographed the box - heck, the whole cased gun. I had no special interest in any rifle calibers for cartridge collecting then, and did not have quite the files I have today. As I recall, though, the cartridges were steel cased, which at the time, struck me as odd. Also, now that I think of it, my comments about the Luftwaffe survival gun were silly, as I am sure that the gun we had was caliber 8 x 57JR and not 8 x 57J.
Now, to Durch’s nice comments, if a cartridge was made specifically for Military Officers, even for hunting, is it a military cartridge? Don’t break Bill Woodin’s heart and tell him that his specimen, identical to mine, is a commercial hunting cartridge! He will never speak to me again! (Just a joke - the latter part, anyway).
well…35 remington ammunition made especially for general Gonzalo had military headstamps but since it was used for sporting purposes and the caliber wasn’t officially adopted by spanish army…I consider it as a sporting cartridge
Well, a somewhat different instance than ammunition made for issue to military officers in gneral for hunting purposes. I guess it would depend on whether it was issued for sport hunting, or for foraging to help feed an army that was more and more experiencing supply problems at the front.
Your point is well taken though. In my odds and ends, I have one of those “personal” rounds made in Spain, mine a 9.3 x 74R made for one Valino Garcia. It has a soft-nose bullet. I really don’t know who the man was, so I would probably classify it as sporting as well, due to the bullet type and caliber.
Now, I also have a .38 Auto round headstamped for General Cardenas, of M
John, fyi here is what I have on that 9.3x74R cartridge. Some Spanish members (or others) are likely able to add or correct the following:
"A “GARCIA VALINO” proprietary hs was produced on a single lot of 9.3x74R made by the Spanish Arsenal at Toledo (originally thought to be from Palencia Arsenal ?) for a combination rifle given to General Garcia Valino and known as the “M59” indicating 1959 ?
Garcia Valino was a General on the fascist side in the Spanish civil war 1936-1939. He earned the name “the grave digger” in the campaign and wrote a book on his experiences ‘Guerra de liberacion’ (Madrid, 1949). He evidently was still a General after WW2 until at least 1959 or maybe retired then ?"
Brad - thanks for the information. I see his name seems to be Garcia Valino. You can read the headstamp with either name first, the way it is stamped. My impression is that Garcia is usually a last name in Spanish. Wonder if they are using the name Garcia Valino the way names are often said in Europe, with last name first. That is very common in Italy for example. “Valino” is not a common enough name that with my poor Spanish I can recognize it as either typically a first or family name.
Do you know when Toledo loaded these rounds - before or after WWII. Mine shows some age, although in excellent shape, and there are no characteristic I could pin down to either era for Spanish Ammunition.
John, here is some more info from www.Munition.org. It states the following from ACME (translated by Bablefish):
"The Spanish version of this cartridge was completed in Toledo in 1959 by order of General Garcia Vali
In googling a bit I found a General Rafael Garcia-Valino y Marcen (with the appropriate accents) who is likely the person for whom the cartridges were produced. JG
Good information! This fellow seems to have had three “last names.” Two are common in the Spanish-speaking world, the father’s family name and the maternal name. I am surprised that they didn’t at least put his military title abbreviated on the headstamp, since there is plenty of room. Room for his whole name and title had they used smaller letters. Of course, they may have put on the headstamp exactly what he asked them to put on it!