Lead in ammuntion ban -UK


#1

I don’t know if this is being mirrored in other countries but in the UK there is a growing and very damaging debate about whether lead in ammunition should be banned. Now I am sure lead is toxic, that goes without saying but I am equally not convinced that a rabbit or deer shot with a lead bullet which passes through its body in about 1-2 thousands of a second is going to be rendered inedible or toxic as a result.
The people proposing the ban are all the usual anti gun / environmental suspects but it seems the debate is gaining ground.

If they get their way, and past evidence suggests they will, a total ban on lead will be the result. Even for target shooting where the bullet is captured and retained in a bullet catcher or earth bank but that seems to count for nothing.

If these people get their way the implication will extend to military ammunition and will cost lives.

Lead shot in shotgun ammo is already a casualty and shooters are already posting on how poor the performance is with steel shot compared with lead.

Its another form of gun control by stealth and is gaining ground by envirionmental groups who see this as a way of limiting shooting by other means and serves their own hidden agendas.

Is this a world wide thing or just something we are fighting in the UK?


#2

Vince, I fear this is already for years on the agendas of quite some groups and countries and also some armies (including Germany).


#3

I really do hope the Euro currency and therefore the EU (the pushers of all this rubbish) collapses.


#4

A proposed ban on lead, in years past, sent me to the tire store, where I bought a 35 gallon drum of old wheel weights. They’re still sitting at the “old place”, waiting for the market price to go up. Thankfully, wiser heads prevailed back then and the ban legislation didn’t pass. But, we are in a different world now. Not optimistic.

Did find this:

[color=#0000BF]Applications of lead which are exempted:
– Lead in glass of cathode ray tubes, electronic components, and
fluorescent tubes.
– Lead as an alloying element in steel (up to 0.35% Pb by
weight), aluminum (up to 0.4%), and copper (up to 4%)
– Lead in high melting temperature type solders
– Lead in in solders for servers, storage and storage array
systems (exemption granted until 2010)
– Lead in solders for network infrastructure equipment for
switching, signaling, transmission as well as network
management for telecommunication
– Lead in electronic ceramic parts (e.g. piezoelectric devices)
[/color]

Exceptions mean there will be a source.


#5

The British magazine “Sporting Rifle” in its latest issue June 2010 has an article entitled “Lead bullet ban- How will it affect you” and discusses all the pros and cons of solid copper hunting bullets and it doesn’t make good reading.

It also discusses surveys on lead levels in people who eat large amounts of shot game and concludes they are way below safety levels. however, like the ban on lead shot in the US, which came from the autopsies on three dead birds its not a subject where evidence counts for much.

The antis are quoting lead levels in the soil around clay shooting grounds and despite the fact that many such places in the UK have cattle grazing on them and no abnormal lelels of lead have been found in the milk it is still an issue which they are highlighting.

Lead occours naturally in the soil in some parts of the UK. Particularly in the South West where it has been mined since pre-historic times and yet the shooting of rabbits seems to present a danger to public health and must be banned. Not quite an even handed arguement in my opinion.


#6

[quote=“SlickRick”]A proposed ban on lead, in years past, sent me to the tire store, where I bought a 35 gallon drum of old wheel weights. They’re still sitting at the “old place”, waiting for the market price to go up. Thankfully, wiser heads prevailed back then and the ban legislation didn’t pass. But, we are in a different world now. Not optimistic.

Did find this:

[color=#0000BF]Applications of lead which are exempted:
– Lead in glass of cathode ray tubes, electronic components, and
fluorescent tubes.
– Lead as an alloying element in steel (up to 0.35% Pb by
weight), aluminum (up to 0.4%), and copper (up to 4%)
– Lead in high melting temperature type solders
– Lead in in solders for servers, storage and storage array
systems (exemption granted until 2010)
– Lead in solders for network infrastructure equipment for
switching, signaling, transmission as well as network
management for telecommunication
– Lead in electronic ceramic parts (e.g. piezoelectric devices)
[/color]

Exceptions mean there will be a source.[/quote]

Lead wheel weight are already banned in UK. They are now zinc. Cutting off a major source of supply for bullet casters. and lead free solder is the norm for computers and general electrical work.


#7

Vince

Yea, a creeping ban, as it was. I did note while visiting the UK that, well, y’all are some of the most risk averse people I know. Apologies for stereotyping EVERYONE there, but it amazed me the lengths folks would go to avoid any potential harm or casualty. Can’t say as that’s a bad trait, but in some instances it was taken to extreme. I’d like to think I’m still a member of the HEY Y’ALL, WATCH THIS club and hope for the best.
I saved the REQUIRED yellow vest from my Channel crossing. It wasn’t even inflatable. I suppose it was to make it easier to find the bodies.
With all that, I’d give anything to go BACK to the UK. A most amazing place. Beautiful. Regardless of their Ministry of Silly Walks. youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w

Rick


#8

WEll, another Source of lead (in sheets) in the UK is Church roofs etc…and Historic Houses…so one could see groups of Nite-time “Roof strippers” bouncing from building to building taking away the centuries’ old lead roofing sheets…when all the legitimate sources dry up…

Back in the Middle ages ( and even in Roman Times) lead larceny was a capital offence (in Rome it was used for Water Pipes).

How stupid can people get?

regards,
Doc AV

BTW, the French used Monbloc metal bullets from 1898 to the 1950s (“Balle D”)

It seemed to work OK at Killing things…


#9

One of the many “bans” in the U.S. related to guns & ammo which is scarcely ever enforced at all. That’s one big difference in the UK from the US, is that in the UK they seem to go hardcore on arresting & prosecuting people for even the most mundane offense, and the penalty is severe. Over here, if you are caught with the wrong type of gun, ammo, or a concealed gun, or whatever; a good lawyer can get it busted down to nothing or virtually nothing in court. Unless you are in Washington D.C. or California of course.


#10

The U.S. military has been shifting towards “green” ammunition for a number of years now, mainly in 5.56mm from what little I have bothered to read about it.

Lead as airborne contaminants in shooting range areas and in impact areas, especially near wetlands, is a huge problem trying to keep shooting ranges open. The usual suspects are using those as “evil” problems created by nasty gun people who shoot ammunition, and therefore should be banned. (Guns, ammo, and people who like them…)

Of course cartridge COLLECTORS on the other hand must be good people as they do not actually shoot any of their ammo or throw it away…

Lead in ammo will continue to be a big issue on legislative and regulatory agendas for years to come, until they succeed in banning it entirely. It may take 5-10-20-50 years, but I have no doubt they will eventually succeed based on scare tactics and the vast ignorance of most people.


#11

As noted above, there is the U.S.ban of lead shotgun ammo for, if I remember correctly, waterfowl only. I believe lead shot is allowed for pheasant, dove, quail, turkey and other such birds.

Not too long ago the Governator (California Govenor Arnold Schwarzenneger) signed into California state law that hunting ammunition with any lead in it cannot be used in areas designated as “California Condor” country. The law was to exclude .22 rimfire ammunition, but that was quickly changed and NO AMMO of any kind can be brought into the hunting areas that is “Condor” country.

As for the U.S. Military “green” training ammo, I have an article that I printed off of a military website that reports that the powdered tungsten “green” training ammo is causing military personnel to become sick and that tungsten is just as dangerous as lead and that the U.S. Govt. is looking into having to clean up military ranges where all this “green” ammo was used. Go figure!


#12

DocAV, maybe “balle D” could even present its RoHS certificate because its bronze alloy contains lead below limits.
;-)
What bronze exactly was chosen for it BTW?

EOD, if I’m not completely wrong there still is a lead core in Bundeswehr bullets, hidden behind a “non-toxic” envelope. Just a few years of delay until it maliciously sneaks out of fired bullets! Window-dressing til the day dangers by the envelope are unmasked. What a chance to sharpen someone’s profile, with the help of our green but ignorant media!

Have a great Sunday everyone, Hans


#13

The swedish environmental agency concluded in a report recently that lead did not pose a danger to wild animals or to the hunters eating their catch. The lead ban the ministry had proposed fell.
Total metal jacket -TMJ- bullets have been mandatory for police use for an number of years here in Denmark. Hunters have been using steel shot (or tungsten) for a while now, much to the annoyance of the forest workers who have to protect themselves against flying shot when they cut up the trees.
Soren


#14

[quote=“DocAV”]WEll, another Source of lead (in sheets) in the UK is Church roofs etc…and Historic Houses…so one could see groups of Nite-time “Roof strippers” bouncing from building to building taking away the centuries’ old lead roofing sheets…when all the legitimate sources dry up…

Back in the Middle ages ( and even in Roman Times) lead larceny was a capital offence (in Rome it was used for Water Pipes).

How stupid can people get?

regards,
Doc AV

BTW, the French used Monbloc metal bullets from 1898 to the 1950s (“Balle D”)

It seemed to work OK at Killing things…[/quote]
A lot of the “lead” on old roofs is actually zinc sheeting these days because its cheaper and lasts longer but it still looks like lead. Lead creeps or migrates under its own weight over time and requires continual maintenence. The lead was stripped off years ago and sold to fund the new roof.

Besides, apart from musket balls pure lead is not much good for making bullets so bullet casting, which was the normal way most of us got our bullets years ago is all but defunct these days.

However, the discussions about non lead bullets seem to revolve around the fact that some alternatives are nearly as good but not quite there. Its very hard to replicate the BC of a lead cored match/sniper round or the consistancy
of something like Eley Tenex.

There is another consideration which should be pondered on without being alarmist. In Britain in the past, when they have banned things like expanding ammunition they just said “It is Banned” without considering the wider implications and all the ifs and buts. So banned could really mean banned with all the spin offs for collectors.


#15

The 5.56mm M855A1 EPR is about to enter US Army service (from June) to replace the M855. It contains no lead.

The USMC, on the other hand, recently adopted the MK318 SOST as an M855 replacement, and that still contains lead.

The British have been working on the L2A3 lead-free 5.56mm bullet for some time, but it hasn’t yet been fielded.


#16

[quote=“Hans”]

EOD, if I’m not completely wrong there still is a lead core in Bundeswehr bullets, hidden behind a “non-toxic” envelope. Just a few years of delay until it maliciously sneaks out of fired bullets! Window-dressing til the day dangers by the envelope are unmasked. What a chance to sharpen someone’s profile, with the help of our green but ignorant media!

Have a great Sunday everyone, Hans[/quote]

The Bundeswehr is not on it by now in total but the “new” 14.5x51R training cartridges are lead free now, instead they fire brass and steel.
I really wonder if the lead used so far really has such an environmental influence.
And what I really want to know is how manyfold the prices are rising for lead free ammo compared to the one with lead.


#17

[quote=“SlickRick”]Vince

I did note while visiting the UK that, well, y’all are some of the most risk averse people I know. Apologies for stereotyping EVERYONE there, but it amazed me the lengths folks would go to avoid any potential harm or casualty. Can’t say as that’s a bad trait, but in some instances it was taken to extreme.

Rick[/quote]
Rick, the trouble is that over here, most of the public are all too willing to dance to the tune of the politically correct nonsense they see in the media. Very few people seem to be able to make their own mind up these days, they think what the TV tells them to think.

For example, when I was in my first year of high school, aged 11, I said I would sooner buy a British made car. Another kid told me “you can’t say that, that’s racist”. You can’t say anything here theys days for fear of being sued for thousands for hurting some idiot’s feelings.

Another worrying one is if that the UK government announched tomorrow that all legally owned guns were to be confiscated immediately, with no compensation. 90% of the public would be jumping for joy about “how much safer the country would be”.

I REALLY want to pack my bags and leave this place for good as soon as I can. But it seems that the same thinking is taking over everywhere in the world, so where would I go?


#18

[quote=“Falcon”]Rick, the trouble is that over here, most of the public are all too willing to dance to the tune of the politically correct nonsense they see in the media. Very few people seem to be able to make their own mind up these days, they think what the TV tells them to think.
[/quote]

Falcon, you are very wise for your age. Media is a power not under control of democracy. Who ever is owning the media (different in every country) is using it to dictate the retarded population what to think and do. As you can imagine here in Germany we have very special issues.

Isn’t political correctness wonderfull? I thought only we Germans are that stupid.

[quote=“Falcon”]
Another worrying one is if that the UK government announched tomorrow that all legally owned guns were to be confiscated immediately, with no compensation. 90% of the public would be jumping for joy about “how much safer the country would be”.[/quote]

The same people should know that this will not apply to criminals and their guns. As you said, the majority of the population is not able to use it’s brain - governments are not interested in educated citizens.

[quote=“Falcon”]
I REALLY want to pack my bags and leave this place for good as soon as I can. But it seems that the same thinking is taking over everywhere in the world, so where would I go?[/quote]

Seems we have the same questions.


#19

Most Brits would agree, I think. The “Health & Safety” movement started reasonably enough to prevent the more obvious industrial risks due to bad practices etc, but it has since grown to a ridiculous extent, exacerbated by a US import, I’m afraid - the tendency to sue anybody for anything which goes wrong. The two make a toxic combination, and have resulted in all sorts of long-established activities and events being cancelled because liability insurance is needed and the premiums are too high.

There is a regrettable tendency to assume that people are stupid and need protecting from themselves. On my recent visit to the US I used local trains and was amused to see that the standard way for passengers to change platforms is to walk across the tracks. This is absolutely forbidden in the UK, except at gated level crossings - which is why we have lots of footbridges to connect the platforms. Sigh…


#20

Can someone educate me? I am not scientifically-minded - that is no secret here. I know that lead is an element (Pb) and that it is mined from the ground, and is found in many, perhaps most parts of the world. Since lead has been in the ground for milleniums, what is the danger of it going back into the ground in the form of a bullet?

I ask this as a serious question - I am not trying to be a smart-a–. Chemistry is the only subject I ever flunked in my life, although there were extenuating cirmstances - two and a half weeks of the course missed due to illness. Hard to catch up. However, I would not have done well regardless.

Common sense tells me that a lot of the Al Gore “Global Warming” hysteria is pure nonsense, but I really don’t know about the lead issue. I know that there ARE hazards from airbourne lead particles, and understand them, but I can’t get this thing about lead bullets in the ground being a big deal when that is the natural environment for lead as an element.

And yes, this is cartridge related, since the controversey is driving a move to ban a primary component of ammunition, used exclusively in my particular choice of the shooting sports, CAS.

John Moss