LeMatt shot cartridge


#1

The more I learn the more questions I have. I have been researching the Perrin revolver and cartridge and learned the LeMatt revolver started as a percussion later chambered for pinfire then center fire for the Perrin round. The LeMatt revolver is unique in that the cylinder rotates on a smooth boar barrel. There is a shot cartridge pictured in Brandt’s “Manual of Pistol and Revolver Cartridges” #175B 12mm LeMatt. I have what may be one of these. The dimensions are as follows:
One piece case length = 44.76mm /1.770”
Sharp corners on rim, dia. = 13.44mm / .531”
Base dia. = 11.88mm / .467”
Mouth dia. = 11.78mm / .462”
Case has battery cup primer with back to back GG logo @ 12:00 and CANNE 12 @ 6:00 impressed.
There is a rolled crimp with brownish top wad.
Question is Canne an old spelling of cane or Canne France?
Question is this the 12mm LeMatt round?


#2

Canne = Cane in English, as in 12 mm Cane gun, also known with a lead bullet in a much shorter case (both inside and outside CF primed) & what you have would be a shot load size case

I’ve seen others consider this the / a LeMatt, but why is it headstamped 12 CANNE, if it was for the LeMatt? My 2¢ is that it is not.


#3

Pete
The other cane gun cartridges are British and are hs Kynoch 9m/m W.S. (case length39.5mm) , and KYNOCH 7mm W.S.(case length 34.2mm).
I have a 9mm HS= G star @ 12:00, CANNE 9 M/M (case length39.7mm)
and a 7mm HS= back to back G , CANNE 7mm 9case length 36.2mm)
I have not seen a round for the LeMatt at auctions. Could it be it chambered the 12mm Canne or walking stick round?


#4

My database notes on the 12mm Canne Shot (FR66) may add some info:


The largest of all the Canne types, this case was only produced in CF (Berdan and Gaupillat Battery Cup) being shown in the factory drawing 10047 of 1896. It was also listed in the 1900 SFM catalog.

However, “GAUPILLAT CANNE 12” examples exist which place the manufacture of this before 1885 when the merger with Gevelot occurred.

Also produced by SFM with “G* CANNE 12m/m”, “GG CANNE 12m/m” and "GG CANNE 12 " hs. This case was loaded with ball, apparently for use in the 12mm Martini-Francotte Carbine (FR11) and also possibly as the 12x46R Loup (FR28) (see also BU V/3 #209).

It is easy to mistake this case for the 12mm Le Mat Revolver cartridge. Reportedly, the only major difference is the thick rim: 1.85 mm for the 12 mm Le Mat, 1.45mm - 1.60 mm for the 12 mm walking stick (see images). The cartridge with the thick rim identified as the “Le Mat” has no headstamp.


Please note also that there are over 20 Canne cartridges not even counting the Sarbacane types.


#5

The LeMatt ctge was not a 12 mm but a 15 mm ctge
JP


#6

JP
I found one LeMat online that is just what you say. Here is the link:
genitron.com/Unique-Handgun/ … t-Revolver
It is listed as a .44/.65 ( 11mm/ 15ga.) One source mentioned that there were some chambered for the Perrin cartridges. I do not know what .44 round they are referring to. Would France have been considering LeMat for the Franco/Prussian war? I did not find any revolvers chambered for a 12mm round though it is listed in Brandt’s book. Also found information that a .35 cal with a 28ga model existed but could not find any of theses either. Would the 15ga have taken regular brass or paper shotgun shells of the time?


#7

MRT,

15 mm CF is the classical caliber for Lemat revolvers.

I know some people say it was also chambered in 12 mm.
I have asked to a reliable source and it said no.

The 15 mm Lemat ctge has a brass case.
It can be loaded either with a lead bullet either with shot.
There is no shotshell ctge having the same dimensions

JP


#8

It appears that not all LeMat Patent revolvers had a 15 mm shotgun barrel. Page 112 of the book “LeMat, the Man, the Gun,” by Val Forgett, Alain Serpette and Marie-Antoinette Serpette
shows a gun described as “No. 296 Baby Belgian” and says the gun chambers 9 x 30 mm cartridges and “13 mm center barrel takes 46 mm long loads.”

It talks about other calibers as well, although I admit the book is terrible on the placement of caliber information. It seems to ignore the caliber when discussing many revolvers, etc., although I did not read the book cover to cover. It may well be worth the time of anyone interested in LeMat Revolvers, etc. to try to find a copy of the book and read it over. Aside from the difficulty of ferretting out information on the calibers of the many, many specimens of LeMatts are shown in decent quality (some a little dark) photos, and perhaps someone with more interest in LeMats than I have, which is very little, would find the text easier to read than do I.


#9

I’ve always been somewhat fascinated by the LeMatt guns and thought I knew something about them… until now. Never knew there was a centerfire shotgun version! Once again I gain great knowledge from you fine gentlemen of this exciting hobby!


#10

When ever I look at the LeMatt it is associated with the Confederacy and I believe they were cap and ball pistols which meant they were loaded from the front with out a cartridge. My question is there more than one LeMatt pistol model?


#11

Vic - see the book I referenced. There were different versions of the LeMat including some the refer to as “Baby” models, and they were made in Percussion, pinfire, and centerfire. Considering the number of variations, and how scarce they are today, it looks like no one variation was really made in any huge quantity.


#12

We’re missing an image here. This was provide to me as a 11mm or 12mm LeMatt revolver shot cartridge.
If it’s not, then I’d like to know what it is!
Thanks

Overall length: 1.275" (32.42mm)
Mouth diameter: 0.455" (11.54mm)
Rim diameter: 0.520" (13.23mm)




#13
  1. What is a 12 mm canne ctge ?
    It is simply a 12 mm thin rim shotshell cut down to 45 mm (instead of an original length of 50 mm).
    Nothing more.

The dimensions for 12 mm thin rim shotshells are
Rim Thickness 1.30 to 1.50 mm
Rim diameter 13.40 to 13.60 mm
Base diameter 11.80 to 11.90 mm
neck diameter (for a 50 mm length) 11.55 to 11.75 mm

  1. What is the name (designation) of such a ctge if we find a baby Lemat chambered for it ?
    (Nota : till now I don’t know exactly for which ctge excatly was chambered a baby Lemat. If you know I would be interested.)

Are you going to call this ctge a 12 mm Lemat ctge ??
Or do you keep the original designation 12 mm Canne ctge ?
(Or it would be better to say 12 mm thin rim shotshell) ?

  1. The ctge shown in Ecra software and given as a 12 mm Lemat has the following dimensions:

Rim Thickness 1.85 mm
Rim diameter 13.65 mm
Base diameter 11.85 mm
neck diameter (for a 45 mm length) 11.75 mm

People said : it is not a 12 mm Canne because the dimensions are not the same, and specially the rim thickness.

In the old times the first shotshells had a thick rim, not a thin one.
Later both rims were coexisting ;
And finally only thin rim shotshells were existing.

Here are the dimensions for 12 mm thick rim shotshells :
Rim Thickness 1.70 to 1.90 mm
Rim diameter 13.40 to 13.60
Base diameter 11.70 to 11.90 mm
neck diameter (for a 50 mm length) 11.55 to 11.75 mm

You can see the “12 mm Lemat” dimensions are fitting.

Therefore the ctge shown in Ecra software or EB book is not a 12 mm Lemat but simply a 12 mm thick rim shotshell (or a 12 mm thick rim canne if you prefer)

JP


#14

[quote=“JohnMoss”]It appears that not all LeMat Patent revolvers had a 15 mm shotgun barrel. Page 112 of the book “LeMat, the Man, the Gun,” by Val Forgett, Alain Serpette and Marie-Antoinette Serpette
shows a gun described as “No. 296 Baby Belgian” and says the gun chambers 9 x 30 mm cartridges and “13 mm center barrel takes 46 mm long loads.”

It talks about other calibers as well, although I admit the book is terrible on the placement of caliber information. It seems to ignore the caliber when discussing many revolvers, etc., although I did not read the book cover to cover. It may well be worth the time of anyone interested in LeMat Revolvers, etc. to try to find a copy of the book and read it over. Aside from the difficulty of ferretting out information on the calibers of the many, many specimens of LeMatts are shown in decent quality (some a little dark) photos, and perhaps someone with more interest in LeMats than I have, which is very little, would find the text easier to read than do I.[/quote]

I thought this might be a good book to have, despite it’s shortcomings so I went online looking for one. When I found them listed from $174 to $434, US, I decided I didn’t need one on my shelf. Not only are the guns rare and valuable, as would be cartridges, but even books about them are expensive!