Looking for info on 9x19mm Gauges-Particularly German pre-1945

The top two gauges were in a batch of 9x19mm gauges. The one on the bottom came to me a few years ago as “probably” a French 9x19mm gauge.

I suspect that none of them are 9x19mm. All have an overall length of 21.4mm snd a head diameter of 9.85mm. The bevel at the mouth seems to me to rule out their being intended for a 9x19mm chamber. The shoulder seems to match a 7.63 Mauser shoulder. I suspect these are 7.62mm Tokarev gauges from somewhere in Eastern Europe.

Can someone confirm this guess, or tell me what they are?

Cheers,
Lew

Unk-1 Unk-1a

They look like Czech Tokarev gauges to me…or my Czech Tokarev gauges are really 9x19!

I will go so far as to say they are Czech gauges for the 7.62 Tokarev-caliber vz. 52 pistol.
I have the two of the gauges identical to the ones pictured.

I have a Polish 9 x 18 mm gauge, and it is only marked on the side, and a bit better done in marking that those Czech 7.62 x 25 ones, more reminiscent of German WWII Gauge markings in quality of application. It is for that reason I rule them out being Polish. Can’t address any other country, because I have no other Tokarev gauges or Makarov gauges other than the ones I mentioned. I have a lot of DDR gauges but they are all in rifle calibers, ranging from 5.45 x 39 thru 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 54R and 12.7 MG. Oh yes, I have several DDR 9 x 19 mm Gauges as well. Almost forgot those, since I got them separately. Most of the others are in various kits housed in green wood boxes.

John Moss

I agree that they look like Czechoslovakian gauges, but I have seen them in armourer kits for the Sa. 24 and 25 submachine guns. The only Czechoslovakian vz. 52 pistol gauge that I know of is a tool that has an extension with the case profile until the shoulder but has no rim.

Soviet specifications for the Tokarev pistol gauges indicate a longer overall length:

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Fede - I should have thought about the SMG use for these gauges. You know me, I only think “auto pistol” with items like this. I guess part of that on gauges stems from my German 9 mm gauges. I have 7of them, and all are marked specifically either for the P-08 or for the P-38 pistols. I don’t recall ever seeing one of the German gauges marked for the various MPs, MP18, MP 28, MP 38, MP 40, etc.

Edited only to correct number of gauges in my collection.

John

John,
There is a huge amount we don’t know about German gauges. I have never seen a Gauge of any type that I could identify as WWI vintage, except for the Colt 380 gauge dated 1918 that you now have. I have seen a couple of German gauges marked RLM with the bent wing eagle which are clearly pre-WWII, but I think the earliest German P08 dated gauge I have seen is 1939. This is without checking all my notes.

I just documented a collection of ~50 9x19 gauges, mostly German (and not mine)and found some interesting variations, but the German gauges, with one exception, were WWII vintage. I have images of a couple of gauges that could be early German but no confirmation.

It would be great if people would send in images or drawings of their gauges, Images are a bit difficult. Often they are illustrated with drawings like those below

image

Below are blank masters that Forum members can use to draw out their gauges. If something is written on the end (occasionally this is where the WaA appears) that can just be drawn in next to the profile.

Blank-Gauge-images.pdf (80.4 KB)

Cheers,
Lew

Lew - that drawing was from an article I did on these gauges many years ago. I established that way to show all the markings in one plane. The article was in the January 1978 Issue No. 165 of the International Cartridge Collector, pages 7-11. I believe this was the first article ever to appear on these gauges. It only showed none gauges. At the time, I think only the “gmm” gauge, the first one pictured in the article, was mine. Today, after 40+ years, I have only 7 of them from pre-1946 Germany. I mention that because I also have some from the DDR that are basically the same design, and sometimes are mistaken for the Third Reich era gauges.

I have never seen an early 9 mm gauge, from the pre-NAZI era in Germany, but when I had my 7.9 Collection, I had 25 of these “Stahlpatronen” in that caliber, including two from the Reichsheer that instead of the NAZI version of the eagle (Reichsadler) before the WaA number, they had a rendition of the Imperial Eagle, which I guess was still used during the Weimar Era. These were all, both 9 mm and 7.9 x 57 mm, headspace gauges. A few of the 7.9 gauges included a full bullet profile, for reasons unknown to me.

Six of my 9 mm Gauges are marked for the German Army (WH - Wehrmacht Heer) while one is marked for the Luftwaffe (WL - Wermacht Luftwaffe). All seven of the gauges are inspected by WaA 42. Of the nine gauges shown in the article, seven were inspected at WaA 42, one at WaA 419 and one at WaA 512 10. They were not mine and I have no gauges reflecting those Heeres Waffenamt numbers in my own collection now.

John Moss

I should have noted that none of my 9 mm gauges have any markings on the front surface of the gauge, or on the head. All markings are on the side of the gauges. The front surfaces all have a small hole in the center, represent about 3 different diameters within the 7 gauges. One is irregular, in that the front surface of the gauge is not totally flat from edge to edge of the diameter of the gauge itself. It has a milled out center, which of itself, is flat, and is black in color, almost as if the milling out of that circle was done after the gauge was polished. I have no idea what the purpose of the hole or, in the one instance, the milled out portion is for. That particular gauge as a very nice “GR” in a rounded-corner square border, with the letters intertwined forming the same monogram as that used by the Georg Roth Company. The gauge is undated, but was inspected at WaA 42 and is a no-go (“G”) gauge marked for the P-38 Pistol.

John Moss

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John,
Thanks for the reference! I am a late comer to Gauges and as a result only have four and all are P38!!! I have yet to be blessed with a P08 gauge. I overlooked your article and only just added it to my file. The source of your gauge pictured above is a page I got from Randy Elzea with five gauges drawn and only one was from your article. I picked it because it was better drawn than the other four. I have other sheets I got from Randy And one was the one in your article, the others apparently from Randy’s collection or his reseaarch.

Thanks also for the information. it will be a big help.

you mentioned the gauge with the milled out in the center. As far as I can tell, most P38 gauges have this milled area in the front. A few have the front like the P08 gauges but with the WaA mark on the front. One P38 gauge I have documented has the P08 style front with no marking.

Thanks for the help!

Lew

Lew - Randy must have lifted the drawing from the article. That is my printing on that
picture. Compare it to my article. It doesn’t upset me. I don’t mind people using my
stuff for any legitimate purpose they want, and they need not even credit me with it. I think I was the first one to use that drawing format for showing the markings, but I could be wrong. I simply don’t recall ever seeing anything on the gauges prior to my article. Somewhere, I have a copy of a German price list showing the gauges, which is where I got my term “Stahlpatronen.” I did not make that up. As I recall, Ralf Augsdorfer sent it to me. Have not been in contact with him for years, but still recall that he helped me get back into the Gästhaus in Etzenrot, when I left the meeting there (1972, I think) very late at night, knowing nothing of “Quiet night” on Fridays. My wife had the key, and was already there and asleep. It was quite comical, although I didn’t think so at the time.

Five of my seven pre-1946 9 mm German gauges are P-08. The other two are P-38. One has the recessed front end as I described; the other is dead flat. Both have the small hole in the front. None of my gauges have any markings on the front, nor on the head. Of course, of the none gauges, my collection is miniscule.

John

Here are the gauges I have documented with drawings. Eight of these are the ones documented in John Moss’ IAA article from 1978. The others are from Randy Elzea and some I have drawn from images.

If you have gauges that are not identical to one of these, please let me know.

Cheers,
Lew

image

image

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Lew - if I have time tomorrow, I will draw the markings using your forms on any WWII German Gauges I have. I assume that’s all your interested in. I will mail them to you, as I still have not figured out the scanner on my printer. Making it run a copy thru is no problem, but finding it afterwards I have not figured out yet. My old scanner was incredibly simple, and did a great job.

John M.

Here are the headspace gauges for the P08 in 1910. This image is taken from the book German Small Arms Markings, by J.Görtz and D.L. Bryans.

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Vidar - Nice! It does open some questions though. The fact that there are two drawings, minimum and maximum length, would say to me that these are headspace gauges. Where does the “Gauge for the protrusion of the firing pin tip” come in?

What do the figures “31” on the left gauge and “30” on the right gauge signify?

I see even back in 1910, these were, if the English Translation is correct and I am sure it is, referred to as “Stahlpatronen.” That is how they are designated on a German price sheet for various items, including these “steel cartridges”, that dates from the era of the 3rd Reich.

Is the book “German Small Arms Markings” available anywhere, and is it in English, German or both?

Thanks for posting this. I knew they must have had gauges similar to the WW2-vintage ones, but have never before seen an actual gauge or even drawings representing them.

John M.

Vidar, Great information. Many thanks.

Lew

Hi Lew,

I have these 9mm gauges in my collection.

Yours Joe

EXCELLENT!

Thanks Joe. I have yet to acquire a P08 gauge from the 30’s or WWII. Never in the right place at the right time.

Many thanks for the info!

Cheers,
Lew

Lew - sorry to be so long with this. My drawings here I did today, and have gotten shakier since I did the drawings for my article. These are not so good, but best an old guy can do. Hope they post o.k. I have seven gauges in my collect, 5 for P-08 and 2 for P-38. You already show the P-38 gauges, but I had 4 for the P-08 you didn’t show.

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