Lot quantity of German military 9x19 in WWII


#1

Here is a picture of dou 9x19 case made in 1943, lot #13
I have never draw attention for Lots quantity before. But today I find that I have no information on this question. So I would like to ask:

  • Is it possible to say what quantity was in one military German 9x19 case Lot and one German 9x19 cartridge Lot?


#2

Treshkin, Wow! you have sure thrown a curve ball.

I have never seen a dou 9x19mm case with these kind of primer crimps and the last use of the early (St) design steel case I have recorded by dou is lot 3 of 1942. In fact, I have only recorded the St code on lots 3 & 4 of 1941 and lots 1, 2 & 3 of 1942. It is interesting that lots 1, 2 & 3 of lot 1942 were also produced with the St+ code and the St+ occured on all 9x19mm steel cases I have documented beginning with lot 4 of 1942.

Below is the lot 13 of 1943 from my collection and it clearly has the St+ and no obvious primer crimp!

You have a really strange one there and one I have never seen on 9x19mm.

Thanks for sharing.

Lew


#3

Treshkin - what color is the primer on that one you show in the B&W photo? Thanks


#4

Lew, it is the head stamp of a 7.9 Mauser.
treshkin must take the picture as an example of a „dou.“ head stamp.

The 9mm do not have primer crimps, and they have a “St+” head stamp.
7.9 Mauser made until lot 18 of 1943 “St” Lot 19 and up “St+”

Rgds.


#5

Gentlemen!

I am so sorry for my mistake. I posted my question in the night and was tired. That is why I place the 7,9x57 headstamp instead of 9x19. I only want to add illustration to my question, but this became my terrible mistake.

My post was only a question - how much cases and cartridges was in German military 9x19 lots

Again, sorry for my mistake with picture


#6

If I remember rightly, from Phil B.Sharpe’s Military reports on German ordnance manufacture, the “Case Lot size” for Rifle cases was around the 180,000-200,000 unit mark, and that for 9mm P cases was about 230,000 to 250,000. That was the tolerance limit for the drawing dies
for case manufacture ( made of Forged and hardened steel); Case filling Lots were usually the same, unless the Lot was a special one ( such as Aircraft “Specials” etc).

In Case manufacturing, the various dies, Bunters, headstamps, etc , wear a different rates, and juggling the whole tool series for economic production causes some variation of Lot sizes, especially with Steel cases; of course, as the Smaller size dies get worn, they are ground out to the next size, and so on. Germany pioneered the “Two-die Draw” for rifle cases, reducing the number of draws from 4 to 2, even though in some cases the “Two” draws, was actually a “four”, but in Tandem
( ie, one machine did two (diameter) draws, one after the other in line.)
This method did cause some problems in case failure by over-stressing, but in wartime, this was acceptable, given the Millions of rounds produced.

Despite the detail Sharpe’s Reports go into, there is still loads of information waiting to be translated in the accumulated archives at BundesArchiv, Koblenz, since they were returned by the USA (Mostly Unread) in the 1980s…of course the (Polte) Archives taken by the Soviets at places like Magdeburg, etc, are still in Russia. These hold the whole history of the development of the 7,9x33 PP43 cartridge. ( Even though some snippets…such as Telegrams with results of field trials and improvements have surfaced in British Documentation.)

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Balllistics


#7

Thank you very much!


#8

@DocAV

If I remember rightly, from Phil B.Sharpe’s Military reports on German ordnance manufacture, the “Case Lot size” for Rifle cases was around the 180,000-200,000 unit mark.

This is not correct.

The production rate from P491 was until the end of 1939 over 50 Million rounds.
There are 25 lots known 1937/1939. Eighteen brass, and seven steel lots. Means to me a 2 Million case lot between 1937 and 1939. It is known that the case lots in 43/44 reach 3.5 to 4 Million

In the list you can see one steel lot of 1938. Well, they made only one steel case in 1938. This steel case lot given to WaA at September 6th 1938 were 3 247 000 rounds.

Rgds
Dutch


#9

Thank you!