LR Pre-T65 ID


#1

Every so often I like to go back to some old unanswered questions to see if somone may have come up with an answer. New members, more knowledge, etc.

Here’s a Light Rifle pre-T65. Headstamp is SUPER SPEED 300 SAV. Bullet is a 163 grain AP M2.

Anyone??

Ray


#2

Ray,

Sorry, no answers just more questions.

So this cartridges dates to the 1944 - 1945 time frame?

The reason for the red bullet tip and cartridge head is unknown?

Or why was red used with an AP projectile instead of black?

Brian


#3

I can’t help you Ray, I really wish I could. However if you don’t mind I will add my ‘similar’ unidentified cartridge to your thread…

This round has a 48mm caselength and a shoulder profile matching the 7.62mm NATO.
Case is of tinned brass.
The bullet is a 144gn laed cored boat tail and apparently is the Belgian SS77.


#4

[quote=“bdgreen”]Ray,

Sorry, no answers just more questions.

So this cartridges dates to the 1944 - 1945 time frame?

The reason for the red bullet tip and cartridge head is unknown?

Or why was red used with an AP projectile instead of black?

Brian[/quote]
Yes, ca. 1944/45

The bullet tip is black covered with red. Look close and you can see the black.

Ray


#5

Ray, Here’s an excerpt from HWS Vol III, Chapter 6 which I just happened to be working on:

“There was actually no official designation assigned to the first cartridge case design for the T65 ball cartridge. The Frankford Arsenal drawing of this case was FB 22743 dated 26 September 1946, which was redrawn from sketch BLX-E2-219 dated Jan. 24, 1945, and was based on the commercial .300 Savage case made with the same head as the Cal. .30 service case, and with body taper held to a minimum to obtain maximum powder space.

The case drawing was entitled Case, Cartridge, Light Rifle, Cal. .30, but it was frequently referred to by the Ordnance Department and Frankford Arsenal as the “T65 Case.” The case was originally made with an overall length of 1.871 in., a head diameter of 0.473 in., a rather sharp shoulder angle of 60 degrees, and a noticeably short neck. The shoulder diameter was .450 -.006 in. and the case length was 1.871 -.015 in.

The first armor-piercing (AP) cartridge with the T65 case was the T90, assigned by the Ordnance Committee on July 7, 1945. This round was essentially the T65 case loaded with a Cal. .30 M2 AP bullet. However, testing at Frankford Arsenal in the summer of 1945 disclosed that the velocity of this loading with the heavy (168 grs.) bullet was only 2,500 fps without exceeding the chamber pressure limits established. When the T90 cartridge failed to reach the desired velocity, an AP cartridge designated the T93 was approved for development. The T93 had a 140-gr. bullet and was loaded to a velocity of 2,700 fps. Because of other priorities, work on the T93 cartridge was suspended in December 1945 until the new light rifle being developed by Springfield Armory could be made available for testing. Later, in 1948, the T93 designation was reassigned to a Cal. .30 light rifle AP cartridge using the FAT1E1 case.”

Interesting that the weight of the M2 AP bullet given here is 168 grains, but yours is 163 grains. There’s nothing about your dark wine-red base and bullet, but they remind me of commercial proof markings. Do your case dimensions match the ones listed here?


#6

Thanks Mel. Some of what you posted was in a JOURNAL article from 12 years ago. It was referenced as being from a draft of Vol III. Time goes by fast!

I also have one with the AP bullet, without any red paint, headstamped SUPER-X 300 SAV, that is described in Vol II. In addition, I have a Ball round, a HPT, and a Dummy. All of them are pre-T65, and are pure commercial 300 Savage cases, headstamped SUPER SPEED, SUPER-X, and REM-UMC.

The bullet weight that I gave is the actual weight. 168 grains is the nominal weight of the original AP M2 bullet. Spec was 168.0 -5.0.

It’s been suggested that the red paint indicated a proof round. It’s an obvious conclusion but there is no documentation. I believe that the Woodin Lab catalogs theirs as “unknown”.

Ray


#7

FWIW, adding to Mel’s post above.

Record of Army Ordnance Research and Development, Volume 2, Small Arms and Small Arms Ammunition, Book 2, Small Arms Ammunition. Office of the Chief of Ordnance, Research and Development Service, Washington, D.C., January 1946; page 192

CARTRIDGE, ARMOR-PIERCING, CALIBER .30, T93
This item is currently under development to provide an armor-piercing cartridge for the T25 light rifle. It uses the same cartridge case as the T65 ball cartridge and is to be assembled with a 140-150 grain armor-piercing bullet. It is expected to yield a muzzle velocity of 2,700 f.p.s.”

Brian


#8

Brian

The pre-T65 cartridge that I asked about has nothing to do with the later T90 or T93, in my opinion. To paraphrase Mack the Knife, “The bullet’s there just for the weight, dear.”

Below is a T93, hs FA 49.

Ray


#9

AP bullets left to right:

T90 - M2 bullet, 168 grains
T93 - T6 bullet, 140 grains
T93E2 - T29 bullet, 150 grains. This became the AP M61.

Ray