Luger pistol


#1

I’m trying to find the year of some old European commercial catalogues.

Depending of the sources on internet I found not the same answers for the following questions.

  1. When a 7.65 mm Parabellum ctge is offered what is the minimum year of the catalogue ?

  2. When a 9 mm Parabellum ctge is offered what is the minimum year of the catalogue ?

  3. When a 9 mm for Glisenti pistol ctge is offered what is the minimum year of the catalogue ?

  4. When a 7.65 Parabellum pistol is offered what is the minimum year of the catalogue ?

  5. When a 9 mm Parabellum pistol is offered what is the minimum year of the catalogue ?

  6. When a 9 mm Parabellum pistol (German Navy model) is offered what is the minimum year of the catalogue ?

  7. When a 9 mm Parabellum pistol (German Army model) is offered what is the minimum year of the catalogue ?

thanks
JP


#2

JP, Question #2 is easy. The first time the 9mm Parabellum cartridge was offered was in the 1904 DWM catalog. A draft copy of the unpublished 1902 DWM catalog did not list the 9mm Parabellum.

Cheers,
Lew


#3

[quote=“Lew”]JP, Question #2 is easy. The first time the 9mm Parabellum cartridge was offered was in the 1904 DWM catalog. A draft copy of the unpublished 1902 DWM catalog did not list the 9mm Parabellum.

Cheers,
Lew[/quote]

Thank you Lew, one point is resolved.
JP


#4

I knew they were difficult questions but I didn’t imagine they were so hard.
Could you please recommend me a website where people are experts about the story of Glisenti and Luger pistols.
Thanks
JP


#5

Collectors Firearms Simpson LTD (www.simpsonltd.com) would be the first place to check as they deal in a lot of very rare lugers.

Ralph Shattuck from Peoria AZ is/was one of the biggest collectors of lugers at one time, but believe he might have passed away.
Can PM his phone # if you want to talk with him, he loved talking lugers.
Kevin


#6

JP, I don’t have the catalogs to answer your questions, but the the earliest dated 9mm Para box I know of is one dated Aug 1907 and has a DWM commercial style label for Truncated HP bullets. the earliest dated DWM cartridge is April 1909 probably for the German Navy. The earliest confirmed German Army production (Spandau) was also in 1909 with the first case dated October 1909 though these cases show up in Spandau boxes dated early 1910 so it appears that ammunition was not available until that date.

Sorry, but I don’t have a collection of gun catalogs that show the dates when the items were first offered for commercial sale.

I don’t understand your question (7). The Army model was the truncated bullet load like the Navy model 9mm cartridge until 1916. They only differed in name as far as I know. In 1916 the Army changed to the RN bullet and the Navy stayed with the truncated bullet. Both the RN and truncated bullets were offered in the 1904 DWM catalog.

Cheers,
Lew


#7

According to Joachim Görtz production of the Navy model started in 1906, running to about 32000 at the end of WWI. Has it ever been offered commercially?
Mass production of the army pistol started in 1909; the contract is dated 10 Nov 1908, according to Görtz. You can use the field manual dates for estimating when the troops started receiving new weapons. For Pistole 08, DVE 255 was issued in 1909.


#8

The military issue naval Lugers were numbered in the typical German military manner, a number of one to four digits, with and without a suffix letter. I think the number in the 32000 range refers to those offered commercially by DWM. Jack


#9

Jack, I don’t think Peelen was referring to a serial number with his comment on “32,000,” but rather simply the production figure.

You are correct, though, that some commercial Navy-type Lugers were made.


#10

John, you are right. Its simply the total number produced.


#11

JPeelen: I see now what you meant. The commercial pistols were numbered intermittently in the DWM commercial five-digit sequence. I was able to find pics of one in the 32,000 range and another in the sixty-four thousands, but the total of commercial naval pistols was evidently less than a thousand all told. Jack


#12

thanks to the people who have repply.

My goal is to date some catalogues because either I don’t know the exact date or often the date given to me is not good.

Here is a short compilation of catalogues I’m sure of the date about parabellum pistols (or ctges) with their contents.

Year of adoption of parabellum pistol
1900 (1901 ?) : adopted by Switzerland (7.65 mm) [color=#FF0000]I would like to have confirmation[/color]
1904 ( ?) : adopted by German Navy (9 mm) [color=#FF0000]I would like to have confirmation[/color]
1908 : adopted by German Army (9 mm)

About German catalogues :

In 1908 (Bischweiler, WUM, GG) we find :
7.65 ctges for Parabellum pistol
9 mm ctges for Parabellum pistol (used in the German Navy)
and :
commercial parabellum pistol in 7.65 (length = 23.7 cm)
commercial parabellum pistol in 9 mm (length =21.5 cm)

In 1909 (Bischweiler) we find :
7.65 ctges for Parabellum pistol
9 mm Para ctges for Parabellum pistol (used in the German Navy)

In 1911 (DWM) we find :
7.65 ctges for Parabellum pistol
9 mm Para ctges for Parabellum pistol (used in the German Navy and German Army)

About French catalogues :

In 1910 (manufrance) we find :
7.65 ctges for Parabellum pistol
9 mm ctges for Parabellum pistol (used in the German Army)
and :
commercial parabellum pistol in 7.65 (length = 23.7 cm)
commercial parabellum pistol in 9 mm (length =21.5 cm)

As you can see I have no reference for german catalogues for the years 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 1909, 1910 talking about parabellum pistols.

And for example if I have an unknown date for a catalogue showing only ctges (or commercial pistol) with “adopted by the German Navy” i don’t know the minimum date;
Same for ***** adopted by the German Army

Thanks
JP


#13

According to Görtz/Walter The Navy Luger (1988) no document with the official adoption decision seems to have survived. Earliest documented evidence seems to be the issue of four “Selbstladepistolen Modell 1904” to Baltic Naval Station (Kiel) for trials (letter dated 1st August 1904). The first production contract was sent to DWM on 12th December 1904.

Adoption in Switzerland was on 4th May 1900 (Bosson: Die Waffen der Schweizer Soldaten).


#14

[quote=“JPeelen”]According to Görtz/Walter The Navy Luger (1988) no document with the official adoption decision seems to have survived. Earliest documented evidence seems to be the issue of four “Selbstladepistolen Modell 1904” to Baltic Naval Station (Kiel) for trials (letter dated 1st August 1904). The first production contract was sent to DWM on 12th December 1904.

Adoption in Switzerland was on 4th May 1900 (Bosson: Die Waffen der Schweizer Soldaten).[/quote]

thank you very much
JP