Does anyone have information or a checklist of headstamps found in “Luger SJ” and “SJ” brand boxes by Eduard Kettner? It seems that most cartridges, if not all, were made by Prvi Partizan but I wonder if other manufacturers were involved. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks, Fede
Fede - I can only confirm that much of the Kettner ammo from the early 1980s was made by Prvi Partizan. I have Kettner boxes in 6.35 mm, 7.65 mm Browning, 9 mm Kurz and 9 mm Para. All show the brand “Eduard Kettner and side from the size of each 25-round box they are identical in box art, with the back label of each pretty much standard PPU but showing in German, “Hergestellt für Eduard Kettner von Prvi Partizan.” (Made for Eduard Kettner from (by) Prvi Partisan.”
The Kettner boxes I have are from lots 8501 for the 6.35 and 9 mm K, and lot 8502 for the 7.65 Br. The 9 mm Para is Lot 8503. The only one with a box specimen is the 9 mm Kurz, and the headstamp of the round is 9 - K nny-83. Cartridge characteristics are normal for PPU ammo fo the period, with the distinctive orangish-red primer seal.
I also have PPU-made boxes for the LIGNOSE brand. The 6.35 mm box is lot 8501 and the 7.65 Br. box is from lot 8502. They are also marked, but only “Made in Yugoslavia” followed by one of the PPU trademarks.
John, thanks a lot for your help, I was aware of “Eduard Kettner” brand boxes but this type of detailed information is always appreciated. The “Luger SJ” and “SJ” brands boxes are much more recent -circa 2002, I believe- and were offered in many of the calibers made by PPU, from .32 S&W Long to .44 Magnum, and from .222 Remington to 8x57IS, including 7.62 mm Tokarev, 9 mm Makarov, 9 mm Luger, .30-06, .303, .308, and 7.62x54R.
Eduard Kettner also offered “Luger” brand pistols, revolvers, rifles and shotguns, and the typography used for “Luger” is the same found in “Leica” cameras, a famous brand also distributed by this company.
The “Lignose” brand boxes were made for Albrecht Kind, another well known company, but are seldom seen, maybe excepting those in .22 LR.
John, if it is not too much work could you show us the Kettner and Lignose boxes?
As usual I am out for company logos other than PPU which may have been applied.
EOD - I will be very busy tomorrow, but sometime in the next couple of days, I will scan one of the Kettner Boxes I have and perhaps one of the Lignose as well, and send them to you and Fede. Perhaps one of you can put them on the Forum.
In the interim, I desparately need information now about this SJ brand of ammunition, especially as it pertains to Makarov, since I have never even heard of it before. Box pictures, headstamp, etc. would all be appreciated. If no one has any example of the Makarov, perhaps even the 9 mm Luger information would be helpful. It is hard for me to believe that I have not even ever heard of this brand with all the in-depth research I have done into the Makarov questions.
John, thanks and no hurry! I’ll post the images as soon as they’ll arrive.
John, wish I could help you but don’t have pictures of a Makarov box, although it should look like these .38 Special or 9 mm Parbellum boxes. I’m not sure if all calibers were made using both “Luger SJ” and “SJ” labeled boxes, and the only one I have seen using both is .38 Special. In either case, Eduard Kettner catalogs designates them as “Luger SJ” or “Luger-SJ” brand.
The “Luger” trademark was filled on December 4, 1997 by Eduard Kettner KG of Köln. I don’t have information about the “SJ” trademark and I’m not sure if was actually registered as an independent trademark. Its meaning is not explained but I believe it may stand for “Schieß und Jagd”.
I’ll send you more information to your email.
Fede, “Sport & Jagd” (sporting and hunting) might be the better for the letters “SJ” as the “Schieß” would sound odd in German.
Alex, thanks for the explanation, I thought about that possibility because their ammunition is usually offered under headings “Schießsport” and “Jagd”.
In the sixties and seventies, Burgsmüller, Eduard Kettner and Frankonia were well known and big shops, doing mail order all over Germany. Kettner had its largest shop in downtown Cologne, right by the opera house. When the subway was built in Cologne, Kettner even managed to get a small 100 m shooting tunnel built alongside. (There also existed Franz Kettner in Cologne, but this was an ordinary small gunshop.) Eduard Kettner around 2000 moved to the outskirts of Cologne, on a much smalle scale. Then they went out of business.
Today only Frankonia is left of the three.
Fede, “Schießsport” could be used as well but for me it is hard to tell as all this is longe before I was able to work with ammo and still is beyond my scope.
After all “SJ” may also mean something totally different. Who knows?
Maybe old catalogs from this time period may shed more light onto the subject.
Alex, I have a Swiss Kettner catalog dated 2002/03 listing this ammunition but no information is given. Also, it was only listed in their website during those years and then suddenly dissapeared. It was evidently offered for a very short period of time.
There was also a French Eduard Kettner local subsidiary in the late 70ies and beginning 80ies in Paris, They had a big shop Boulevard Berthier, on the northern part of the city, and sold mainly Hunting rifles, shotguns and other hunter’s paraphernalia, including imported ammunition… hats, lodens, a.s.o. They also went out of business.
I checked my library and found I had a full catalog for Eduard Kettner in Kõln, Germany (Cologne) for 1995/1996 and a full catlog for Eduard Kettner, Luzern, Switzerland, for 1997/1998. The 95/96 catalog does not show the SJ or LUGER-SJ brands. The 97/98 catalog from Luzern does show them, so the brand was around at least six years. I am assuming that 97/98 was the first use of the brand, although I realize the catalogs are from two different stores, but since they are in the same chain, I expect they would have similar content.
If anyone has an SJ or LUGER SJ box for 9 mm Makarov, I would gladly buy it, empty or full, or if not for sale, I would appreciate as good a quality picture as the owner could make of it. It is really important to me, as it will decide whether or not it goes in my Makarov manuscript. Without at least a box label, there is no proof it was actually ever offered other than in the catalog pages, even though we know now of many other calibers, including pistol ammo, for which boxes exist.PPU, in my experience, seldom if ever could supply their entire line at one single time. I also suspect that any ammo in those boxes has the standard PPU/nny headstamps, as the company’s policy has been to NOT do special headstamps unless the entire contract amount is paid in full up front, before the first cartridge is made. Most buyers will not do that.
Here the images from John Moss:
John and Fede, it caught my attention only now but the dates John mentioned for the “SJ” boxes are all from 1985.
By that time the German reunion had not happened yet and the Cold War war was still on and the iron curtain was in place what means that there must have been extremely few Makarov pistols in private hands in West-Germany. Following this the demand for 9x18 Mak. cartidges was likely somewhere near zero.
So if I did not miss anything it could well be that there were no “SJ” brand 9x18 Mak. in Germany back then.
If Fede has a catalog listing this caliber/brand it will throw my theory of course.
John, what are the earliest known PPU made 9x18 Mak.?
Any other thoughts on this?
EOD - you misinterpreted my remarks. I have NO SJ boxes of any caliber in my collection. All of the boxes that I referenced from 1985 are “Kettner” brand boxes, for which I show in the thread a picture of the 9 mm Para version.
The LUGER-SJ and SJ brands were not introduced until the Kettner/Luzern catalog of 1997/1998, which I have. In the opening pages, many pages before the ammo section, there is an introduction of the brands indicating they were new for that year. Kettner sold ammunition, much from Yugoslavia, under their own name “Kettner” years before the SJ brands came out.
The earliest date on a Yugoslav 9 x 18 mm Makarov cartridge of which I am aware is from 1981. Mine is a factory dummy round. My notes indicate that Woodin Lab has a live round of that headstamp. I wish I did! If anyone can provide a picture of an earlier-dated Yugoslav-manufactured Makarov cartridge, please post it on this thread. Thank you.
John, thank you for clarifying this. So my posting above is superfluous.
Alex, this is the earliest ad that I have that mentions “Edward Kettner” brand ammunition. It was first published in July 1985.