Mannlicher Pistol Cartridge Headstamps?


#1

I’m curious about the known headstamps for the 7,60 and 6,5 mm Mannlicher M.94 pistol cartridges, as well as the 7,65x21mm M.1900 cartridge. I have the following examples in my collection:

7,60mm:
K&C * * 95
K&C * * 97

6,5mm:

  • 96

7,65mm M1900
M.W. Sommerda
DWM K K 466
H///*
F.M.M.A.P.B. 1947

Does anyone have any they can add to the list?


#2

7.65mm:
F.M.M.A.P.“B” 7.65mm
H.P. 1932
H * K&C *
H * & * (K C are missing)
KYNOCH 7.63
F.M.“SL” - 7.65 - 58 -
ELEY - 7’63 -


#3

All I can add is:
GR///*/
S.F.M * GG *

And this is Model 1901, (DWM 466), correct?
Dan


#4

7.60 Mannlicher

GR / * / * / * / (G and R are intertwined, as is typical in their Monogram-style headstamp)

7.63/7.65 Mannlicher

F.M. “S L” - 58 - 7.65 - (Ball & Proof)This duplicates Johnnyc’s listing, but is included here only
to note the two different loadings it is found on.)
F.M. “S L” - 7.65 -
H. / * / * / * / (this may duplicate Heljac’s listing - these exist both with and without
the dot after the “H” and we note that under “7.60” Heljac’s listing doesn’t show the dot that
comes after the “97.” on the actual cartridges).
GR / * / * / * /

  • / SB / * / P /
    -MANN’LR-ELEY.LONDON
    KYNOCH 7.63 (Primer “ICI” inertwined in monogram form. Again, this may duplicate the one
    on Johnnyc’s list, which shows no primer marking)
  • S.F.M * GG (The “GG” is intertwined back-to-back)
    K DWM K 466. (I have four variations of this headstamp, all with a dot after the number)
    S O E M M E R D A *
    . M&W . S O E M M E R D A
    M & W. SOEMMERDA
    19 P 02 M (Note - this is a correct; the same headstamp also appears on the bottle-necked
    Mannlicher cartridge)
    RWS. 7.65 (Primer has impressed “O” representing a Sinoxid primer)
    H. * * * * (no dividing lines - mine on a dummy only)
    . KYNOCH . 7.63 (mine on a dummy only)

Many of these 7.63/7.65 Mannlicher headstamps I have shown are in my collection in two or
more variations. I have not listed most of those. I have 41 specimens in all.

As noted above, these may duplicate headstamps already shown, but appear to be missing
entries, primarily dots or primer markings. It is not impossible that the ones that do not
exactly correspond to mine are actual variations. Only a double check of the previous-listed
headstamps can confirm that. I have not seen, for example, and M & W Mannlicher round
without an ampersand between the two letters. That is NOT saying the one shown by HELJAC
can’t exist. I simply don’t know.

John Moss

P.S. Added as an edit - Dan’s list duplicating two of mine was posted while I was working on
my list, so my list duplicates the ones he showed. Sorry about that.


#5

Yes, I’m referring to the 1901 pistol cartridge.

John, I wrote the list from some notes I have, not the actual cartridges as they aren’t on hand at the moment, so the discrepancies are probably errors on my part.


#6

Hello,

I can add:

7.63 mm Mannlicher (7.63x21):

GECO. 7,65 M
MANNLICHER 7,65 D
R MS
No headstamp (Argentina)
No headstamp (Eley)
No headstamp (unknown)

Regards,

Fede


#7

Fede - I forgot to mention the several unheadstamped rounds I
had, although they were included in my total. I also have a modern
commercial round made in the USA from a different case - headstamp
irrelevant, which I also didn’t mention.

Can you describe the Argentine unheadstamped round and the Eley
unheadstamped round. I think I have the Eley, but am not sure, and
I don’t know what the Argentina rounds looks like (flat or domed primer,
primer cup material, bullet type and jacket material, any special crimps
such as stab-type neck bullet crimps, etc.)???

Perhaps I can identify a couple of mine. I am surprised the Geco round
is seemingly rare - I have not seen one in 50+ years of collecting. Same
for the RM S. Do you know who made the MANNLICHER 7,65 D round?

I like the Mannlicher series of cartridges very much. Should we add a list
of the 1903 (.30 Mauser case-type) here?

John Moss


#8

Hi John,

We have five different unheadstamped Argentine made variations in our reference collection. I don’t have them at hand to take pictures, but I do have a description of each one of them:

1 - Ball: tinned brass jacket.
2 - Ball: tinned brass jacket held by three stab crimps.
3 - Proof: brass jacket with two indentations on the side and held by three stab crimps, red primer sealant.
4 - Proof: tinned brass jacket with two indentations on the side and held by three stab crimps, red primer sealant.
5 - Proof: tinned brass jacket with two indentations on the side, red primer sealant.

All of them have a flat brass primer with beveled circumference.

Regarding the manufacturer, we can assume that these cartridges were made by FM “San Lorenzo” during or after 1958, because they look very similar to cartridges headstamped F.M. “S L” - 58 - 7.65, which also exist as proof loads with or without red primer sealant. However, we must keep in mind that this cartridge was offered in FM “FLB” catalogs until c. 1978 -not longer listed in c. 1982 editions-, which means they could be of much later manufacture. These late catalogs even show the picture of an “all red bullet” variation of this cartridge, like those made in 6.35 and 7.65 mm Browning, but as far as I know no specimens are reported to exist. Also, it’s worth mentioning that there is a full auto variant of the Hi-Power pistol chambered for this cartridge that was reportedly made in 1974, so it is quite possible that fresh ammunition was used to test it.

The unheadstamped round taken from an Eley box has a CN jacket and oval brass primer (no bullet crimps), and the unknown has a CN jacket held by three stab crimps and a flat copper primer.

The “MANNLICHER 7,65 D” was made by Gustav Genschow before they adopted the Geco headstamp.

Regards,

Fede


#9

A list of the 1896/1903 cartridge headstamps would be fantastic.


#10

1903 Mannlicher Cartrdiges (These have not always been easy to separate
from the 7.63 Mauser. The ones I show below are believed to be the 7.65
Mannlicher, based on box labels, articles showing scholarly research, etc.)

/ 97./ * / K & C / * / (Soft-nose bullet)
/ 97. / * / K & C / * / (Nickeled dummy. Heavy rolled case-mouth crimp
that is not on the ball round)
K DWM K 497 (Hollow-point bullet)
19 P 02 M (FMJ Bullet - odd cannelure around case neck just
above the top of the shoulder. Very thin and very
regular. Not impossible that it is a defect)
19 P 02 M (FMJ Bullet, ordinary case neck)
19 P 02 M (Soft-nose bullet with steel tip above the lead - TM mit kappe))
19 P 02 M (Nickeled dummy, with knurled case cannelure
(approximate .360"/9.16mm above the cartridge
head. A pin thru the neck resembling a dual
180 degree stamp crimp.)

7.63 mm Mannlicher Experimental (Versuch) (23mm Case Length)

No Headstamp (Ball FMJ)

7.65 Mannlicher Long (carbine) (32 mm Case length)
(Actually for a pistol-carbine, not an actual pistol, but
included here due to appearance of the cartridge [elongated
7.65 Mannlicher 1903 case type] and the fact the carbine
has the same action as the pistol for the standard 7.65 version)

H / * / K & C / * / (Ball FMJ)
H * K & C * (Ball FMJ)

All the above-listed rounds are from my own collection. Other
headstamps and cartridge-type variations certainly exist.

One round I know of is the Mannlicher 7.65 1896/03 with headstamp
/ S.F.M / * / GG / * / It is believed the headstamp segment lines
are to differentiate the loading from normal 7.63 x 25 mm Mauser.

John Moss


#11

I forgot to mention that I also have a 7,60 mm M.94 dummy with the headstamp K&C///95, small hole drilled through case with some sort of paper or sawdust filling. I’ll try to post some pictures tonight. I don’t know if it’s a factory dummy or something done to inert the cartridge.


#12

I’ll look forward to pictures, I hope including the headstamp. First I
have heard of a “95”-dated headstamp in this caliber.

John Moss


#13

I’m still interested in a picture of the “95” headstamp. I don’t doubt
its existence. The pistol model was a year earlier than that, as I recall.
There is an unheadstamped 7.60 Mannlicher, although I have not personally
seen one, and I just assumed it was the first production round, covering the
first two years of the eistence of the pistols. They are rare enough today that
it can be assumed, I would think, that not many many, so it didn’t seem odd
to me that the first date most of us had seen was “96,” two years after the
pistol’s model designation. One run of ammo probably would have served all
the pistols for a couple of years. It would be great to have a picture on file
of a pre-96 headstamp! There is still plenty to be learned about these early
auto pistols and their ammunition. It was not so many years ago that it was
believed no collector had a sample of a 8 mm Shoenberger cartridge, and then,
due to some excellent research in England, we found the pistols were chambered
for the cartridge which many of us had in our collections, and called the 8 mm Kromar.

John Moss


#14

John,

Sorry, been out of the house, will take a pic tomorrow

Jacob


#15

Heljac - no apology needed. I appreciate very much your opening
this thread. It is an interesting group of cartridges, and I have enjoyed
it very much. I only wish that I was not so computer-stupid, and could
utilize my new computer and my cameras to take some pictures of some
of these rounds. One of these days I will “bite the bullet” and get a computer
guy out here to try to help me get some better software and try to teach me
how to use it. I have many requests for pictures of one thing or another from
good friends, which with my old computer was easy for me, and now cannot
even get a photo into my computer in any way that I can “tune it up” and
put it into a place where I can retrieve it.

thanks for your efforts here!

John Moss


#16

John, apologies for the poor pictures but I do not have a scanner to use for headstamps. Here is the K&Co. 1895 dates 7,60mm Mannlicher cartridge.



#17

Heljac - you are one step ahead of me. I have never gotten the ability
to post pictures, although thanks to another member, I have excellent
instructions that even an idiot like me can follow. However, my scanner
is Kaput and my Nikon camera won’t hold a chip. Got to get it fixed.
Right now, I am totally out of the “image business.”

Your picture serves the purpose perfectly. The date is quite obviously
"95" just as you reported it. Great cartridge. I have never seen this early
date on one of these before. There is an unheadstamped round also, but
I don’t have that, either. I suspect it is from the first production, although
that is just a guess. They must have had some ammo for testing that pistol,
though, before it was released as “M94.”

Thank you very, very much for the picture.

EDIT: Heljac - I am sorry this is posted so late. I was researching something
and open this thread, and found at the bottom that my reply, which was typed
a month ago, was never sent. A miracle it was still there awaiting posting!
I am very sorry about that. It is not my habit to ignore people who grant me
the favor of a posting which I have requested.

John

John Moss


#18

John,

The case has a small hole drilled in the side and the primer snapped, and is filled with sawdust or paper, I can’t quite tell. I don’t know if it’s a dummy or someone simply inerted it. I actually brought the cartridge to the SLICS show this year to get an opinion on it but my time was limited and did not get to ask.

Jacob


#19

Heljac - I don’t know either if that would be a factory dummy or
something someone inerted. K&C factory dummies in pistol
calibers of that general era were usually nickel-plated including
case, bullet and primer.

Doesn’t matter much - it is a wonderful cartridge regardless and
am grateful for the information about it. I had never seen a date
before 96 on these rounds. I pick one up like that if it was only
a fired case!

Thanks for sharing the pictures and info with us!

John Moss


#20

These are the 7.65x25 Mannlicher headstamps in my collection: