Marga Loads-What Calibers?


#1

A recent thread on Marga training loads in 7.65x54mm Mauser http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13525 got me wondering what calibers are known with these Marga loads and what years were these Marga loads appearing.

Another thread http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15804 indicates Marga loads are found on 7x57mm Mauser cartridges. DocAV indicates that most Marga cases date from WWI or the 1920s.

The 7.65mm Mauser loads pictured by 30Army are in FN cases dated 1935 and 1940.

I know of a box of Marga loads in 6.35mm Browning.

If the Marga loads were made in 6.35mmB then I’d expect them on other pistol calibers including 9mm Para. I don’t have anything in my Belgium collection that looks anything like this.

What calibers have been confirmed with Marga loads?

Are there any other Marga boxes? If so, please post.

Does anyone have other pistol “blanks” or similar rounds that may be Marga loads?

What time frame was the Marga load introduced/patented? How long was the system in production? At least until 1940 from the other threads.

Great topic. Thanks to all who contributed.

Cheers,
Lew


7.65 x 54 Mauser Short Range?, Training?
U M D Short Range-Gallery?
What is this 7.65x53 cartridge
#2

Lew, this is a very extensive subject involving many case types, loadings and countries, but at least I can start by mentioning that these Marga blanks in pistol calibers were designed in 1926 and also exist in 7.65 mm Browning, .380 Auto and 9 mm Browning Long. In most cases these are erroneously identified as “FN blanks”.


#3

Fede - you are right. I have never seen them referred to as anything other than “FN Blanks” in my 50+ years of collecting. The box pictured is the first I have ever seen for one of these pistol rounds. I think everyone referred to them as “FN” simply because, at least to my knowledge, all of the pistol ones are in FN cases. Now we know they were evidently loaded by Marga.

Is it a correct statement to say that these actually have little or nothing to do with the Marga rifle rounds, which appear to be short-range cartridges, other than the manufacturer?

The pistol calibers, and the apparent lack of this Marga Blank in 9 mm Parabellum, may have to do with the fact that Belgium was not using a pistol (nor was FN serially producing one) in that caliber until c.1935, with the the Modele de Gran Puissance, commonly called the Model 1935, the P-35(b), the GP, and the HP (High Power). The service round was the 9 mm Browning Long used in the FN Model 1903 Pistol (Browning’s patent and for anyone not familiar with it, which on this Forum is highly unlikely, I admit, it looks like and oversized Colt Model 1903 .32 Auto). Of course before the date of this Marga blank FN also made .25 caliber, .32 caliber and .380 caliber(latter two in Models 1910 and 1922) pistols.


#4

Hi, in the book about Uldarique Marga is the 7,65 Browning BLANK cartridge already mentioned in 1903 for the Pistol Mod. 1900. (Resume des Travaux de l Artillerie en 1903)
A Mrs. Louis Leconte mentioned in 1910 that the troops are using for the 1889 rifles still this type of Cartouche a blanc (balle celludodine) and that furthermore for the pistol Mod. 1900 a “normal” 7,65 browning case was used with 0,48Grams de poudre de Chasse (hunting powder) smokeless and “extra fine”, a balle Cellulodine and a primer “extra strong”. This cartridge had a bullet Diameter of 8mm an was experimentally made in 1902 by the Manufacture d armes and was accepted from the Gendarmerie-Corps in 1903!!
In 1912 the Journal de Brevets describes a “new” Cartouche a blanc MARGA with the presence of "matiere pulverulente pondereuse (not specified) which filled up the empty spaces between the powder (charge) and the Simili-Bullet and also into the hollowed inside of the bullet, which than allowed automatic function of the gun…

For Lew: If you want, i can bring the book to Stoky, and you can take pics from the interesting pages, if you want

Forensic


#5

Forensic - interesting information. I wonder how 1903 production of a 7.65 mm Browning-caliber blank (I can’t picture the material of the bullet in my mind) in 1903 squares with the 1926 Patent about which Fede spoke. I checked my blanks. I was disappointed when reminded by my collection that I did not have the “white wood” blank in FN case in caliber 9 mm Browning Long. A big hole in my collection of that caliber! In 7.65 mm and 6.35 mm, I have several types in FN cases. In 7.65, I have two FN headstamp variations in what appears to be a composite material “bullet” that is about the color of jeweler’s rouge, for those familiar with that substance. Kind of a “used brick” red color. I also have those like Lew’s picture, that appear to be some sort of wood fibers pressed together. I have one in each of those two calibers that appear to have the texture of wood, but are red in color. Then, I have a red projectile and a black projectile in loaded 6.35 rounds that I assume are blanks, but look almost like plastic or wax even, similar to the hard wax bullet rounds from Geco in Blank and, as I recall, tear gas as well. They are in FN cases though, and I assume they are either FN manufacture, or Marga. The 6.35 mm blank at the right has a white paper bullet. The case is unheadstamp, but has a distinctive set of six (6) square primer crimps that circle the primer. I was told it was Belgian when I got it, and I cannot dispute that without documentation proving otherwise. Missing from the picture is the 9 mm Browning Long, which looks much like the 9 mm Browning Short that is pictured, with a plain wood bullet most likely loaded by Marga.

Do you have any photo, forensic, of the round you described dating from as early as 1903. It is the appearance of the material of the projectile I am interested in, so the precise date of manufacture is not important to this question. The headstamp would be of interest, however.

Fede - any comments here? I am, as I think my question shows, now thoroughly confused about exactly which variation of projectile(s) constitutes a Marga “Tir en blanc?”

Bulleted-Blank cartridges, all in FN cases with one exception, noted below. There are variations in my collection of some of these types, but the projectiles are the same - they vary only in headstamp lettering and primer cup shape and material.

Top Row, 6.35 mm Browning, left to right: Marga type with plain wood bullet, as also show in entry by Lew Curtis with the box label; Black wax-like bullet (could be plastic - difficult to tell); Red bullet that appears to be plastic, although it could be hard wax as well; white paper bullet. This round is unheadstamped, with six large, square, equidistant primer crimps that take up a large portion of the head. It was supplied to me as being Belgian, and as there are many unheadstamped Belgian rounds, without documentation such as a box label, that cannot be disputed.

Middle Row, 7.65 mm Browning, left to right: Marga plain wood bullet blank, second one probably the same, but with different bullet ogive; wood bullet colored red; last one has a composite bullet, or so it appears, a brownish red color.

Bottom Row, 9 mm Browning Short Caliber: Marga plain wood bullet blank.

Missing from the Marga blanks with plain wood bullets is the 9 mm Browning Long, which is the only other auto pistol caliber I, personally, have seen from Marga.

Collection and Photo by John Moss


#6

Forensic, Yes I would like to take some photos of pages from this book! Thanks…

All, My question shows just how narrow my knowledge is. I had no insight into the variety of Marga blanks/short range cartridges. I have seen other “FN” blanks with what I thought were simply paper/composite bullets.

The Marga bullets interested me because I have a blank that I thought was German by RWS from the 1920s or early 1930s. The headstamp is only 9m/m and is almost identical to the headstamp on the 9mmP “Paper Patch” bullet round. I have pictured both along with an RWS board dummy for comparison.

Is it possible that the 9mm Paperpatch and the 9mm blank are actually Belgian loads??? I have also included an X-Ray of the “Paper Patch” load since it is an unusual enough load that a patent may identify it’s origin.

John, Since 30Army shows a Marga load in a 1940 dated case, it seems to me possible that a Belgian 9mmP Marga load is could have been produced from somewhere between 1936 and 1940.

Does anyone know when Marga went out of business???

I’m not claiming the 9mmP blank pictured is a Marga product, and am quite contented to keep it as an RWS blank, but it’s shape is suggestive. Note that the bullet tip has been pressed down by something like a tube which slightly deformed the tip of the blank.

Any info appreciated.

Cheers,
Lew


#7

John,
I mentioned in that other thread about the (7x57??) 7,65x54 mm Marga the following, also found in this book:

“In 1911 he received an other patent (Brevet 233720) for a cartridge “a blanc” (blank) for repeating armes, which means for pistols. This patent runs until March 1927. During the wartime (14-18 he had not to pay costs for the patent, because there was no production during that time for blanks…
The Etablissement Marga received in 1926 till 1938 several new patents on pistol blanks.”

Means, someone may can Research all this patens. In the book are all the patentnumbers, but i have no time, to look them up…and also dont knew, if there are any papers left. But as Lew likes to copy or photograph all this pages, it may will help to clarify…

From the 7,65 Browning blank from 1903 is a drawing in the book, showing the construction of the bullet…
But as patents are issued till 1938, their maybe also 9mm Luger- loads, even as i havent seen one yet.

Have fun
Peter


#8

Lew, the composite bullet at right is likely Marga design intended for short range practice, as I have documented a loading of this type in a 7.65x54 Mauser case headstamped U M D.


#9

Lew, as mentioned above by Peter, these are two Marga short range cartridge designs patented in 1938 that may have been made in 9 mm Parabellum.



#10

The upper drawing is patent number 422239 (short range bullet) from 23. June 1937 and Shows in the original page also the components, a case, the paperhull for the bullet and an unformed leadslug, before pressing …The holder of the patent was " Soc. dite :Ancienne Etablissement (dite: means NAMED)

The lower picture showing a Composite bullet is patent number 426535 (short range) from 23.February 1938. The holder of the Patent was given as : Ancienne Etablissement Marga- Here the lower part (which looks like a bullet) is NOT a bullet, but a “gargousse”, which means “une sachet contenant un Charge de poudre”. It means, this bullet looking part in the case is a bag containing a hot powdermixture ( par exemple: Blackpowder), ensuring the Propulsion of the upper bullet and cycling the Action. Sorry my english isnt better, to describe the French original text…

There are some more patents from 1926 for blank ammo …Patentnumbers are 336232 and 338083, just 3 months apart and showing the bullet construction, where the later one contains 2 powder charges, one “slow one” (called lente) in the bullet Body and divided from that by a paperdisc an other powdercharge in the case much more powerfull (poudre plus vive)…


#11

Fede, That is very interesting!!! The “paper Patch” 9mm bullet is a lead projectile with a fiber lower portion which sure looks like the Marga patent for the short range projectile. The overall weight of this round is 192gr so the overall projectile weight must be right at 124gr or standard for a 9mmP. Sounds strange for a shortrange.

If the “Paper Patch” is a Marga load, then the blank must be a Marga load since the headstamp is essentially identical.

Now you really have me wondering. Below are the headstamps on the two possible Marga loads (top) and the headstamps on two loads that are clearly Geco/RWS from the same period (bottom). Both are just 9m/m but the two on the bottom have the classic Geco/RWS primers from the period. I had these classed as two different headstamps, but the similarities led me to think they were both German. On a scanner image the differences are much clearer.

I find no 9m/m headstamps made by FN or anyone in Belgium during this period, but there are headstamps 9m/mP by AEP from the 1930s. I have included three examples of these for comparison. The AEP headstamps have a smaller character size, and are no more similar to the potential Marga headstamps than are the Geco/RWS to my eyes.

Forensic, Now I really want to take some photos of your book!!!

Cheers,
Lew


#12

[quote=“Lew”]

Forensic, Now I really want to take some photos of your book!!!

Cheers,
Lew[/quote]
Lew,
That will cost you certainly an arm and a leg, of course…or a meal in that very expensive “Restaurant” on the outside of our housing :-)

Peter


#13

[quote]Forensic - interesting information. I wonder how 1903 production of a 7.65 mm Browning-caliber blank (I can’t picture the material of the bullet in my mind) in 1903 squares with the 1926 Patent about which Fede spoke. I checked my blanks. I was disappointed when reminded by my collection that I did not have the “white wood” blank in FN case in caliber 9 mm Browning Long. A big hole in my collection of that caliber! In 7.65 mm and 6.35 mm, I have several types in FN cases. In 7.65, I have two FN headstamp variations in what appears to be a composite material “bullet” that is about the color of jeweler’s rouge, for those familiar with that substance. Kind of a “used brick” red color. I also have those like Lew’s picture, that appear to be some sort of wood fibers pressed together. I have one in each of those two calibers that appear to have the texture of wood, but are red in color. Then, I have a red projectile and a black projectile in loaded 6.35 rounds that I assume are blanks, but look almost like plastic or wax even, similar to the hard wax bullet rounds from Geco in Blank and, as I recall, tear gas as well. They are in FN cases though, and I assume they are either FN manufacture, or Marga.

Do you have any photo, forensic, of the round you described dating from as early as 1903. It is the appearance of the material of the projectile I am interested in, so the precise date of manufacture is not important to this question. The headstamp would be of interest, however.

Fede - any comments here? I am, as I think my question shows, now thoroughly confused about exactly which variation of projectile(s) constitutes a Marga “Tir en blanc?”[/quote]

John, sorry for the late answer, I missed your question. Marga blanks in pistol calibers can be found with bullets varying from tan to red, but I can’t say for certain if all blanks with a similar look were made by Marga. I’m not aware of a box containing blanks of this type of FN manufacture, however.


#14

I also just edited my entry on the thread, to which Lew added my pictures, to enhance the description I had already given.


#15

A link to Marga cartridges in 6.5mm Dutch.

http://www.militarycartridges.nl/dutch/marga.htm

Lew