Masuer sporter chamberings 10,75x68

Does anyone know the origin of the Mauser cartridge 10,75x68?

  • In COTW it is said that it was constructed during the 1920th

but

  • It is listed in the 1911 DWM catalouge but called 10,5x68, no 515A
  • John Speed has one Mauser Sporter listed in 10,75x68 with serial number in the 1908-range.

so it muste be dated from or before 1908.

Is it a Mauser design?
When was it first listed?

best regards Johan

PS

in the 1911 DWM catalouge it is said that 10,75x68 (10,5x68) was standardized as a “Normalhülse” at the Erfurter Konferenz 21 Oktober 1909

does anyone have any information concerning this conference?

Best regards Johan

Some information here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11990

[quote=“WBD”]Here are my notes on “Normalised”:


A major problem in Germany ammunition production c1900 was that most companies introduced similar cartridges for competing Gunmakers that were similar in dimensions but apparently non-interchangeable. The “MB” cartridges in both Utendoerffer and Lorenz catalogs are examples of such cartridges.

Many of these cartridges were incompatible and hence as early as the mid 1880s there was an attempt to “standardise” some calibres. The 52mm case length MB calibres listed in the c1886 Lorenz catalog are referred to as “Einheitshülse” and in the Roth c1888 catalog some of these are listed as “Sogen Einheits” (abbreviation of “Sogenannte Einheitshülse”), both meaning “Standard” or “Normal” case.

Heinz Held states: “Up to the period 1874, beside military two-piece, only cases in light construction were manufactured. H. Utendoerffer addresses the manufacturing of cases with solid base for private use which is shown in an offer of July 1875 and makes such a decision dependant on their being a standard case. Despite the proposal to standardise the cases 9,5/10/10,5x52R eM the project was not achieved before c1888 until the 8.15x46.5R normal case was introduced.” [ED ??? - even the 8.15x46R wasn’t normalised until c1899]

However in the 1890s, a large number of manufacturers in Germany were still producing the commoner calibres without control over the exact dimensions and tolerances of bullet diameters and cases. A good example of this was the 9.3x72R (see ‘9.3x72R Express (360) Types’) where at least 4 different versions existed and some described as being the same actually had different dimensions depending upon which company manufactured them.

Most packets are marked 'NORMALISIERT" or “STANDARDIZED” if English was used on the packets. See two DWM packets showing the 'NORMALISIERT" designation. The left is a post WW2 IWK packet and the right is a pre-WW1 DWM packet (hs was “DWM * K *”).

Rosenberger refers to the ‘normalisation of case measurements’ of 1905 but this may not be early enough for the first efforts at normalisation. Certainly by 1902 the 8.15x46R (GSP7) calibre was “Normalised” as it is shown normalised in the Oscar Wills Venus Waffenwerk 1902/1903 season catalog. This may have occurred even earlier, possibly as early as 1899 as it is shown in early 20th century catalogs by Stahl and Egestorff as being “Normalhülse” including a Stahl catalog with handwritten date ‘1899’. This date is unconfirmed but the catalog appears to be close to this date.

According to J&R : “At the Erfurt conference of 21.09.1909, German manufacturers voluntarily agreed to to define dimensions for each calibre. For the marking of the bases, only are accepted the references of gauge and the code or summary of the locality of manufacture. Here, SCH is for Schonebeck. But one can also meet. If several manufacturers are in the same locality, only packing will make the difference”.

Heinz Held states: "Following the rules of the ‘normalization’ c1910, case/ cartridge designations had to be: calibre x length. It was no longer allowed to associate letters with each measurement, they had to be combined after the measurements. The small letter indicating the calibre needed to be used first. So, together with the designation ‘R’ for rimmed case introduced in 1922, the correct sequence results in: 9,75x40,5R bA; 9,5x47R bB; 10,5x38R bS; 9,5x47R b/aMB; 10,5x47R bMS, etc. "

The 1911 DWM Catalog No3A shows four case types as “Normalhülsen specified by the Erfurter conference of 21 September 1909” (see image). These four case types are all known with “NORM” in their hs and were the: 8x57 J (M7), 8.15x46R (GSP7), 9.3x72R (EXP17) and 10.75x68 (M58).

Other references (?) state that evidently beginning in 1909 the German arms industry (supported by DWM and RWS) established the official dimensions of a number of such calibres. Progressively through the 1920s, 30s and even into the 1950s, more calibres went through this process and were shown in DWM and RWS catalogs as being standardised.

According to Anderhub: " In 1912 during the Erfurt Convention, the measurements for the 8.15 x 46 R (besides some other cartridges) have been
"Normalisiert" (standardized), All 8.15 x 46 R cartridges, manufactured in accordance to the Convention’s Agreement were headstamped “8.15x46R NORM”." [Ed - This date is likely wrong and should be 1909].

The following table shows all known officially “Normalised” calibres (with approx dates of normalisation). This list is derived from DWM and RWS catalogs from 1912 -> 1950s and also various German Arms industry publications (Cartridges that are known with a ‘NORM’ hs are annotated " ** " ):

8.15x46R c1899/1900 (**)

9.3x72R - 1909 ()
8x57J -1909 (
)
10.75x68 -1909 (**)

6.5x57 <1913
6.5x58R S&S <1913
7x57 <1913
8x51 <1913
8x57JR <1913
8x57JRS <1913
8x57JS <1913
8x57R/360 <1913
8x58R S&S <1913
9x57 <1913
9.3x62 <1913
9.3x74R <1913

5.6x35R <1923
8x60 <1923
6.5x52R <1923
6.5x48R S&S <1923
6.5x54 <1923
6.5x57R <1923

7x72R 1930
8x72R 1930

7x65R <1934
8x60R <1934
7x64 <1934
7x57R <1934

7x65R <1939
8x57J <1939
8x75RS <1939

8x68S <1955
6.5x68 <1955

also listed as “Normalisiert” on packets:
8x64S
8x65RS[/quote]

According to the reporting at the time in “Schuss und Waffe” journal:

On 17 Sep 1909 was a first meeting in Frankfurt (Main) between RWS, DWM, Egestorff, Schönebeck (Munitionswerke!), Dornheim as well as Albert Preuss from Neumannswalde test station. There it was decided that common dimensions for 9.3x72, 8.1x46 and 10.75 should be decided upon, a process called Normalisierung.

On 21 Oct 1909 the well known conference at Erfurt took place with 35 patricipants, representing industry, gun trade ant the two test stations Neumannswalde and Halensee. Here the actual “normal” measurements were agreed upon. But it should be noted that only the maximum outer dimensions of the cartridge case were to be normalised. And only for the three cartridges mentioned above plus an 8 mm:
8.15x46, 9.3x72, and 10.75x68 plus a cartridge surprisingly called “M 88/8” at the time. Case dimensions of the latter are identical to those of German military Patrone 88 (round nose), but at the time something like “8x57” was NOT used. The 8 after the slash was the caliber, others like M88/9 existed.

These activities contiuned. For example, on 25/26 Jan 1912 a large conference took place in Neumannswalde.

By the way, on 12/15 Sep 1910 an international conference on standardization took place in Brussels, it seems on the initiative of a gentleman named Fraikin, head of the Liege proof house. Official delegations from Belgium, France, Austria and Germany were present, as well as observers from Italy and Spain. This could be called the beginning of CIP.

So far I have not found out when and how the changeover from designation M 88/8 to 8x57J took place. It is more tricky than expected, because the military rifles Gewehr 88 and 98 originally used the case of what we today know as 8x57J, but the bore dimensions of the 8x57JS. This will surprise many, but military dimensional tables of the time are printed in the books by Dieter Storz.

P.S. While the German proof law of 1939 says “8x57J…” etc. CIP today uses “8x57I…”

Here’s some additional notes on the 10.75x68 and Erfurt 1909 Conference:

*********10.75x68 (M58)

This is the most common of the “G Mauser” type cases and was once a popular calibre in both Europe and Africa, being produced by many European manufacturers including Kynoch of England. Also popular in France were it was produced by SFM, ATE and also loaded by LDP.

A DWM factory drawing of this cartridge is dated 1912 but its introduction must have been earlier than that as according to the 1911 DWM catalog, this case type was Normalised at the 1909 Erfurt conference. It was shown in the DWM 1911 catalog and the Alfa 1911 catalog as a 10.5x68 Mauser (with DWM case #515A). Presumedly DWM introduced this cartridge shortly after its shorter necked companion; the 10.75x63 (DWM case #515 : M57) which was c1907. It was not shown in the DWM 1908 catalog. At least 15 different DWM hs variations are known.

A very early Type-B Oberndorf Mauser that has turned up from South Africa, in 10,75x68 caliber. It’s marked “1908” and it’s serial number is quite consistent with 1908 production. Also, that Mauser then stamped the receiver ring with the actual manufacture year, (not to be confused with a Model date). So the “1908” manufacture date seems fairly reliable. The early 10,75x68’s were said to have tight bores, in the 10.60-10.65mm range, not the later standardized 10.75mm diameter.

GECO did not list this in their 1908 catalog and RWS did not list it until their 1912 catalog and a “N 10.75x68 NORM” hs is known. It was still listed in their catalogs till c1990 but not in their 1991 catalog. DWM ceased production by its 1971 catalog. It appears that it is no longer currently produced in loaded form by any major company although Horneber, Romey and Bertram all produced cases in the 1990’s.

This cartridge was used in a large variety of weapons including: Manufrance Rival Rifle, FN, BRNO, Sauer.

Hermann Gerlich used this case for one of his reduced-taper HV experimentals (see images) to 6.5mm.

There is also a 10.75x68R rimmed version of this case type which was designed by RWS but may never have been produced by RWS but new production by Horneber exists - see M74.

***************Erfurt Conference 1909

The Erfurt Conference of 21 October 1909 was a major improvement in regulating the quality of case production in Germany at that time.

The Versuchsstation Neumannswalde (Neusmann Forest Testing Station) was a research facility that had beem founded in 1900. It called the meeting to deal with the many differences in the dimensions of cartridge case types at the time and to begin the process of a standardised set of dimensions for cases as well as other standards particularly for the marking of cartridge cases.

At the meeting , the following main issues were decided:

  • Official “Normalisation” began. For each common rifle calibres, the dimensions of the associated cartridge case would be set exactly as a “NORMAL” case and future manufacture by all factories should follow exactly those dimensions as for the normal case.

  • Evidently the dimensions for four such cases were established (see diagrams): 8.15x46R Norm (GSP7), 9.3x72R Norm (EXP17), 8x57J (M7) and 10.75x68 (M58).

  • By Oct 1910, the Normal cases are all to be stamped on the base with the standard designation of the caliber and length, as well as with the word ‘Norm.’ e.g. “8, I5 x 46 Norm.”.

  • On the cartridge, the Manufacturing factory is to be referred to by an abbreviation of the manufacturing site as follows: N = Nuremberg, Karlsruhe = K, Su = Suhl, So = Sömmerda, D = Durlach, Sch = Schönebeck, L = Linden.

  • The formation of a Commission was unanimously agreed for determining what the dimensions of all normal cartridge cases should be:

The 1909 Erfurt Conference had nothing to to with the “Munitions-Verband” manufacturers meeting but most of the same companies did attend. These were:

RWS, DWM, Dornheim, MWS, Lindener (Egestorff), Gustav Genschow & Co.

Research Insitute of “Deutschen Jäger-Zeitung”, Neumannswalde-Neudamm.

Deutsche Versuchsanstalt für Handfeuerwaffen, Halensee. (German Research Institute for handguns, Halensee.)

J. P. Sauer & Sohn and Thieme & Schlegelmilch (for the arms manufacturers in Suhl.)

Udo Anschütz and Ernst Fr. Büchel (for the arms manufacturers in Zella- Mehlfis).

Dieter-München: (for the Association of German rifles. Makers, weapons and munitions dealer).

Many other authors have referred to this mtg and often got some detail (mainly the date) wrong:

  • Heinz Held states: “Following the rules of the ‘normalization’ c1910”

  • According to Jorian & Reigenstreif (translated) : "At the Erfurt conference of 21.09.1909, German manufacturers voluntarily agreed to define dimensions for each calibre.

  • According to Beutter (Auction list #3): " ‘Su’ for Suhl was agreed in October 1910 at Erfurt in a meeting of the commision of the rifle and ammunition factories."

  • According to Anderhub: " In 1912 during the Erfurt Convention, the measurements for the 8.15 x 46 R (besides some other cartridges) have been

“Normalisiert” (standardized),…"

  • "In 1935 the Erfurt Conference made the Nomenclature Convention that all sporting ammunition had to have the correct designation contained in the cartridge hs. Note that there may have been another Erfurt meeting in 1935:

Note that the Sömmerda factory appears to have used the “SDA.” abbreviation on headstamps rather than “So” and no examples of “So” in a hs have been encountered.


Here is the actual (translated) text of the Versuchsstation Neumannswalde “Schuss and Waffe” Nr23 article on this subject:


Schuss and Waffe Nr23 (Translated to English)


The new Normalised cases

8.15 x 46 standard, 9.3 x 72 standard, mod 88/8 standard., 10.75 x 68 standard.

The many differences in the dimensions of case types for products of different origin caused the management of the Neumannswalde Research facility to create a set of unified standards for these viable case types.

At the meeting held for that purpose on 21 October 1909 in Erfurt, which were attended by 35 representatives of companies and institutions, the following was decided:

  1. For each common rifle calibres, the dimensions of the associated cartridge case be set exactly, and this case be manufactured in the future by all factories in exactly matching dimensions as the normal case.

  2. All previous case types are no longer to be made, unless this proves necessary.

  3. These aforementioned Normal cases are all to be stamped on the base with the standard designation of the caliber and length, as well as with the word ‘Norm.’ e.g. “8, I5 x 46 Norm.”.

The Manufacturing factory is to be referred to by an abbreviation of the manufacturing site as follows: N = Nuremberg, Karlsruhe = K, Su = Suhl, So = Sömmerda, D = Durlach, Sch = Schönebeck, L = Linden.

  1. For each Normal case set that is made by individual factories, a standard sample of the cases cases will be brought to test in the rifles, for the cutters of the cartridges to be constantly controlled. These normal samples will be kept in the Royal Fire Institute in Suhl.

  2. Standard samples for cases and cartridge bearing, to be able to mills for the latter and calibration cylinder for cartridges with low costs, the joint production of all these tools in large numbers will be to accomplish.

  3. Each rifle that is produced should have the designation of its Normal cartridge stamped on it, to assist in the purchase of cartridges.

7 The formation of a Mixed Commission was unanimously agreed for determining what the dimensions of all normal cartridge cases should be:

  • Representatives of the German cartridges factories which manufacture such cases.

  • The leaders of the Neumann (at Neudamm) and Halensee Research Institutes

  • Two representatives of the gun manufacturers of Suhl and Zella-Mehlis and

  • Two men from the Association of the German gunsmiths, arms and ammunition dealers, based in Munich.

The following points are to be observed:

The numbers in the drawings mean millimeters and are maximum dimensions of the cases. Tolerances are not specified; It is task of the case factories, as to approach the maximum mass, without however exceeding them.

The making “Norm” is the indicator for the standard cases. In addition, used are:

N = Nuremberg
K = Karlsruhe
Su = Suhl
So = Sömmerda (all fabrication)
Sch = Schönebeck
L = Linden
D = Durlach.

Longer company names should not be used on the bottom of the cases.

All Gun dimensions, which are set up for the new normal cases should be provided, as she wears the bottom of the case, named, so that you can immediately see which case it fits (for example 9.3 X 72 Norm; shown here without the indication of the letter for the cartridge factory, of course).

The samples are deposited in the Royal Fire Academy in Suhl and shelter of the Directorate for the gunsmith trade school there. Teaching and tools will be provided to the Röhm factory in Suhl by the 1st October next year.

At the meeting on the 21 October 1909 of the Permanent Commission in Erfurt for the Unification of the rifle cases.

Rheinisch-Westfälische Sprengstoff-Akt.-G. vorm. H. Utendoerffer, Nürnberg.

Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken, Karlsruhe. G. C. Dornheim, Suhl.

Munitionswerke Schönebeck a. Elbe.

Lindener Zündhütchenfabrik, Linden bei Hannover.

Gustav Genschow & Co. Akt.-0., Durlach 1. Bad.

Research Insitute of “Deutschen Jäger-Zeitung”, Neumannswalde-Neudamm.

Deutsche Versuchsanstalt für Handfeuerwaffen, Halensee. (German Research Institute for handguns, Halensee.)

J. P. Sauer & Sohn and Thieme & Schlegelmilch (for the arms manufacturers in Suhl.)

Udo Anschütz and Ernst Fr. Büchel (for the arms manufacturers in Zella- Mehlfis).

Dieter-München: (for the Association of German rifles. Makers, weapons and munitions dealer).

All applications in this matter should be addressed: to the Research Insitute of Neumannswalde at Neudamm.

Dear WBD

could “N = Nuremberg” in the list above instead be Nürnberg? if so N would stand for RWS (Rheinisch-Westfälische Sprengstoff-Akt.-G. vorm. H. Utendoerffer, Nürnberg.)

The “south africa sporter from 1908” is that the same one John Speed mentions in his book?

best regards Johan

Nuremberg is indeed the English language name for Nürnberg and N was intended to be used by RWS.

Thank you for the clarification!

concerning the 10.75x68

347 grains 22.5 g is the standard weight of the bullet or 26 mm as it is said in the old catalouges.

I have seen 16.5 g bullets from GECO, I believe they are for 10.75x57

I examined one Mauser Sporter some weeks ago, dated 1909.
the proof mark on that one said 18 g but I have not seen any ammunition listed with 18 g bullets. Was 18 g used originally?

Found 18 g bullets in GECO nr 35 catalouge, 1925. 18 g bullets 10,75 are listed there.

1 Like

Great info, thank you.