Meaning of "Sammel Lfg" on German P08 Boxes


#1

I just saw this box on auction with the red “Sammel” marking on the top.

This box has normal ammo headstamped dou St+ 15 43.
I have a box with a similar marking with cartridges headstamped dou St 1 42.

I also have a box with “Sammel Lfg” printed on the label as a seperate line under the powder load. These cartridges are headstamped dou St+ 29 44.

I have disassembled rounds from both my boxes, both of which I got full. and I can find no difference between these and normal loadings, except for a single round in the 1942 box had a slight case dent under the lacquer.

I understand that the marking means Sample Loading, but what does the marking signify?

Dutch, do these show up on 7.92mm boxes?

Cheers,

Lew


#2

Lew, there is written “sammel Lieferung” what means something like “corporate lot”. To my understanding there are several different lots been used for one of the cartridge’s components (to which ever this remark applies now).


#3

It is interesting that it only shows up on dou loads as far as I know. of course dou wasn’t really an occupation factory since the Germans occupied what is now the Czech Republic, and Slovakia became an independent country! Maybe one of the Slovak members of the forum has some insight in the use of these markings. One possibility is that this ammunition was not for the German Army, but for sale somewhere else-like the Slovak military. There is one box of special loadings by dou packed in a 30 round box.

Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Lew


#4

If export then only to an ally since commercial exports were not allowed to have the German military codes on. This can be seen for example on 7.92x57 which were made for Sweden and had the “SB” in the head stamp.

I am no expert in this but to my opinion this is regular ammo for the German military where just several lots of one component have been used for cartridge assembly. Which is not surprising at all when we look at the situation those days.


#5

If I recall my high school German correctly “sammel” means “collect” or “collection”. I would interpret the marking in question as “collected lots”.

AKMS


#6

EOD,
AKMS,
You make a lot of sense. I pulled out my box with Sammel Lfg on the label. As I mentioned above, it appears below the line describing the powder. What I had not noticed is that the powder identification only identifies the powder type and the date (1943). The maker and the lot are missing. The primer designation is “Zdh. 08-1942 Sammel-Lfg”. Again, no manufacturer or lot number. This is an interesting label. The production lot for the cartridges is 57 of 1944, and the cases and bullets are dou 1944 production, but the powder and primers aare from 1943 and 1942 respectively.

My box with the stamp is a standard label, with manufacturer and lot number printed on all components. Here the indicated lot for a particular component perhaps ran out before the end of the production lot and components from a different lot were used.

Thanks for the help!

Lew


#7

I see online that “Sammel” can be interpreted as “consolidated” as well


#8

[quote=“EOD”]If export then only to an ally since commercial exports were not allowed to have the German military codes on. This can be seen for example on 7.92x57 which were made for Sweden and had the “SB” in the head stamp.

I am no expert in this but to my opinion this is regular ammo for the German military where just several lots of one component have been used for cartridge assembly. Which is not surprising at all when we look at the situation those days.[/quote]

Yes, they used the pre WW2 head stamp code for export.

Lew, in my limited 9mm collection I found this box.

Rgds,


#9

[quote=“dutch”][

I am no expert in this but to my opinion this is regular ammo for the German military where just several lots of one component have been used for cartridge assembly. Which is not surprising at all when we look at the situation those days.[/quote]

Yes, they used the pre WW2 head stamp code for export.

Rgds,[/quote]

Dutch, I am sure you know this but just to clarify for other readers:
Actually the “P” is no code and was used on German military cartridges only before 1918-9 and shortly after and it was just an abbreviation. Du to the dictate of Versailles the codes started to emmerge. Means the “P” of Polte itself was never a code (unlike the P-codes with figures). So once the P-codes were out the plain “P” had no meaning on German military ammunition and was Polte’s official commercial sign.


#10

It seems that on Dutch’ 08 box, the “sammel-lfg” stamp is placed -maybe deliberately- on top of the case info, which, consistent with what was said earlier, does not have a lot-# and therefore must be made from collected materials/several lots.
Interesting thread, does this sammel-stamp show up on 7.9 boxes as well?
Soren


#11

@ eod, I mend the pre WW2 Czechoslovakian head stamp.

Soren, never see it on a 7,9 box label. I think it is unusual on other then “dou” 9 mm boxes.

In 7,9 Mauser they used the term “verschiedene“ (different) or „verschiedene Lieferungen“ (different delivery). It is mostly used on blank labels. Sometimes you see them on ball labels.

Rgds


#12

Dutch, Ths is the way I have seen it on P08, with the sole exception (as far as I know) dou code P08. I still wonder if the fact that Slovakia was an allied country and not an occupied country made a difference in the type of Geman Army inspectos in the Factory. Perhaps This ammunition was a commercial sale by the company to the German Army.

Cheers,

Lew


#13

I think in this case, the most likely translation is ‘combined delivery’ or ‘combined deliveries’, signifying that the package contains components from more than one deliverer.

‘Verschiedene’ is best translated as ‘several’ here, close to the meaning of ‘combined deliverers’.

It just means that the rounds in the package were assembled using components from several different suppliers.


#14

Rolf F also sent me a batch of P08 box photos, most with variations on the “Versch” marking shown by Dutch. Below are two more of the dou marked boxes.

The top one is interesting, to me because it is various 1940 cases, loaded in lot 64 of 1941. Sounds like they were cleaning up odds and ends.

Lew