MEN 7.62x51mm with tinned bullet?


#1

This week I picked up some fired cases, headstamped: + MEN94C0010, where the “+” is the NATO symbol. the cases and primers are brass, green primer annulus seal, three stab primer crimp, berdan primed.

The shooter showed me one unfired round and I was surprised to note that the bullet was silver in colour, looking like tin plating. This is apparently military surplus available here in England.

What does the bullet colour/material signify please?

gravelbelly


#2

We had this before here somewhere in detail.

These are in fact tinned ones since the projectiles have encapsuled lead cores. Since no lead is evaporating during the firing process to act as a decoppering agent the projectiles were tinned to reduce copper deposits in the barrel.

I forgot the full designation but if I recall right these are DM111. Someone may correct me.


#3




#4

Sorry!!


#5

We have been shooting this stuff for several years now. ( four or five years?) circa 2003 manfacture. There seems to have been a huge amount of it surplused, check out Ammo Zone for details, thats where we buy it. GT Shooting have been selling it too. Its not bad, neither is it brilliant either. OK for short ranges but definitely no good at 600yds. The Bisley office has not had it for sale which tells you something.The GGG stuff is better and Bisley have been selling that.

Its not cheap either, I think £47 per hundred which put it in the price range of PPU at one time but PPU has gone up since to around £55 now. Personally I would still prefer PPU. PPU can handle 600yds

Tin coated steel jacket (?) bullets, quite hard on the barrel I suspect


#6

[quote=“VinceGreen”]We have been shooting this stuff for several years now. ( four or five years?) circa 2003 manfacture.

Tin coated steel jacket (?) bullets, quite hard on the barrel I suspect[/quote]

Isn’t it copper/gilding metal beneath the tin, otherwise no de-coppering required?

gravelbelly


#7

This is none of my business but, the bullets look to me like CN rather than tin plated steel. I didn’t think anyone used plated steel jackets.

EOD - can you elaborate on your post? I’ve never heard of evaporating lead from the core acting as a de-coppering agent. And, I’ve always thought that GM fouling was preferable to tin or CN deposits. GM bullets were developed for that reason.

All GM bullets foul the bore to some extent. A little is not a bad thing. Most shooters do not try to remove all GM fouling because a surgically clean bore is not necessarily as accurate as one that has a small amount of fouling. Regardless, a perfectly clean barrel will shoot to a different point of impact than a fouled one and so most shooters, whether competition or hunting, will usually fire a couple of “fouling” shots.

JMHO

Ray


#8

Offhand I can’t think of a German-made jacketed military rifle bullet that didn’t use a steel jacket, usually copper or nickel clad. Jack


#9

Jack - there’s a big difference between clad, plated, and washed. Most all US bullets using a steel jacket are GMCS (Gilding Metal Clad Steel). Most foreign ones I am familiar with are CW (Copper Washed). But, I’m far from an expert on foreign bullets, or anything else for that matter. My observation was that the bullets shown appeared to be CN, or CN clad, not tinned.

Are they magnetic?

Ray


#10

[quote=“RayMeketa”]
EOD - can you elaborate on your post? I’ve never heard of evaporating lead from the core acting as a de-coppering agent. And, I’ve always thought that GM fouling was preferable to tin or CN deposits. GM bullets were developed for that reason.
Ray[/quote]

Ray I can not say much more than that this is given data from German Military data sheets.


#11

The German bullets are, I believe, actually made from steel sheets with thin layers of copper or nickel alloy on each side which is rolled into a fused layer like an American dime. From these sandwich sheets the bullet jacket discs are punched and eventually become jackets. But in any case they will attract a magnet. Not strictly clad, I suppose. Jack


#12

Jack - You described the clad steel bullet jacket. The US bullets are clad with Gilding Metal (GMCS) and it sounds as though the German bullets are clad with CN (CNCS).

EOD - Are any of those data sheets available in English? I’d like to read about it but English is my one and only language.

Ray


#13

[quote=“RayMeketa”]Jack - You described the clad steel bullet jacket. The US bullets are clad with Gilding Metal (GMCS) and it sounds as though the German bullets are clad with CN (CNCS).

EOD - Are any of those data sheets available in English? I’d like to read about it but English is my one and only language.

Ray[/quote]

Ray, they are official German military manuals I assume there is no English version. Also they are classified.


#14

These MEN bullets are quite a matt flat grey colour, almost bluish which I would associate with tin but who am I to say? . The nickel bullets I have encountered have been shinier and warmer in hue. Will nickel alloy with tin?

I have long since stopped doubting that such bullets are steel jacketed because apart from the RG everything else we get seems to be steel. I don’t have any in the safe at home since my home stock is PPU but there are plenty in the safe at the club and I will be going there on Thursday evening so provided I remember to take my magnet I can do some checking then. ( always assuming we don’t get the snow that you guys have been enjoying)

Technically, there should be an EU data sheet available (COSH) for these bullets listing all the relevent toxins and their levels. Do importers comply with such requirements? Who knows? Or will they just duck the issue and refer me to MEN direct? Thats always assuming I knew who the importer is which at the moment I don’t.

Technically also, since we store this ammo on our premises we should have COSH sheets available for them should a Health and Safety Inspector turn up and demand to see them. All I can say to that is yeah right! as if…

I have never known a COSH sheet be supplied with ammunition in the whole of my life. To us or to anybody else.


#15

Vince

A bluish hue or tint would certainly indicate tin. If you have occasion to handle one, can you determine how heavy the tin is and, more importantly, what is under it? Here in the US, tin wash was usually applied for ID puposes, or as a sales gimmik, and it is very thin. It can be rubbed off in many instances. Many of the old sporting cartridges with tinned bullets are very splotchy (that’s a real word) looking and you can see areas of the GM under the tin.

BTW, I’m ready and willing to take back any comments I have made so far. I really know very little to nothing about foreign cartridges. That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.

Ray