Mexican 7.62x54R from 1925


#1

This round looks amazingly like Russian 7.62x54R and I guess I am supposed to assume it is made in the USSR (who else used it in 1925 besides Finland?). It has a very deeply seated primer. How do I know for sure?
image


#2

I believe you have a Mexican one there.


#3

The base on this picture is entirely non-typical for the USSR: another form of the base, another font, another primer, another form of the upper part of primer pocket


#4

Jonnie is absolutely correct, in my opinion. This is a sample of a Mexican 7.62 x 54R made by Fábrica Nacional de Cartuchos. There are actually three different headstamps, and a variation with no headstamp. The headstamps are, to the best of my ability to type them:

— F.N.C. — 7.62 — 1924
F.N.C. 7.62 1925
1925
No Headstamp

Some people don’t seem to know that México produced this caliber, and 8 mm Mauser as well,
in 1924 for the two calibers, and 1925 as well, for the 7.62 x 54R.

The 8 mm Mauser is found with no headstamp, and then with a couple of minor headstamp variations with the headstamp as follows:

8 F.N.C. m/m 1924

The 8 mm headstamp is read simply orienting the “F.N.C.” at the top. Every other entry is oriented the same way, with the very small “m/m” with the letters “m” more on top of each other than side-by-side.

Nice find. I have never actually held one of these Mexican 7.62s in my hand, although I don’t collect them so I never sought any out. I was going to do an article on Mexican metallic cartridge headstamps, made in México, made in México for other countries and made in other countries for México, figuring there might be 25 or so headstamps. I drew about 200 different headstamps, not including dates, before I gave up the project, figuring it would turn into a book I did not want to write. I still have all the index cards. That was before many of us had digital cameras.


#5

Thanks, Jon & John, I was one of those “some people” who had no clue Mexico made 7.62x54R.


#6

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Jonnie is absolutely correct, in my opinion. This is a sample of a Mexican 7.62 x 54R made by Fábrica Nacional de Cartuchos. There are actually three different headstamps, and a variation with no headstamp. The headstamps are, to the best of my ability to type them:

— F.N.C. — 7.62 — 1924
F.N.C. 7.62 1925
1925
No Headstamp

Some people don’t seem to know that México produced this caliber, and 8 mm Mauser as well,
in 1924 for the two calibers, and 1925 as well, for the 7.62 x 54R.

The 8 mm Mauser is found with no headstamp, and then with a couple of minor headstamp variations with the headstamp as follows:

8 F.N.C. m/m 1924[/quote]

Is it known who these two calibers were made for? Was there a specific customer? Do they turn up in any particular part of the world?

The middle of the 1920s weren’t a particularly belligerent time, a lot of the territorial disputes arising from the post 1919 settlement had been settled one way or the other and apart from China where there was almost constant conflict there were only ‘police’ actions for the most part.

So many questions …

Happy collecting, peter


#7

I have seen a photo of Mexican soldiers training with Mosin rifles years after 1925; perhaps in the twenties these were issued to second-line or militia units in Mexico. Jack


#8


#9

Hendere - thanks for posting that picture. I was unaware of a headstamp with only the date 1924 on it. It was not reported by anyone during my research into Mexican cartridges some ten years ago. Although I will never right the article I had intended, since as I said, it would be almost a book, I will add it to my notes.


#10

Whoops, don’t change your notes. It’s a badly struck 1925. I’ve sometimes wondered if the no headstamp versions were just just REALLY badly struck 1925 ones. They didn’t seem to be really good at making these…


#11

You beat me, but this one has my unheadstamped example. Very upset that I can’t seem to find my “1925”.


#12

Cool. Thanks for posting that Jonnyc. I hadn’t actually seen one before.


#13

I don’t think the unheadstamped ones are just a “1925” badly struck. There is an unheadstamped 8 mm Mauser as well.

Thanks for the correction, Hendere. Sure looked like a “4” to me. I will tear up the card I made.
I don’t know why I try to keep up on these Mexican headstamps. I only collect the auto pistol ones. This thread did remind me that I have to fill in a whole bunch though.


#14

Here is my only other Mexican, still has Arizona dirt stuck on the primer edge. I have a general question. Why do Mexican and American made 7.62x54R have a extractor type groove running along the junction of the rim and the main body whilst British and Soviet/Russian ones have no groove, just a 90 degree angle?
image


#15

Vlad–I can’t answer your question about why U.S. made rounds have that little undercut, while others do not, but I can address the purpose of the undercut. It is used mostly on cartridges that headspace on the front of the rim and its purpose is to insure a nice square 90 degree with no possibility of a slight radius being left behind in making the head to keep the cartridge from seating completely in the breech.


#16

The other answer( solution) of the “undercut rim” situation, is the diffent type of both heading dies which form the rim in the first place, and the way the resulting rim is “trued” up when turning the final diameter of it. The groove is also a form of stress relief at the “curve” in the junction of Rim to body. certain case makers who rely these days on TC heading dies to fully form the case rim and head,(without a finish turning) also have “extraction” problems with their cases.

I don’t know whether this is actually “useful” as such,but in European Rimmed cases it doen’t seem to matter.
The only other reason is that rimmed cartridge extractors seem to grip cases better if there is the relief before the rim, than the “unrelieved” ones??? ( the sharp claw of the extractor does not press against the case body, but “fits” in the groove?, allowing the extractor NOT to bind on the receiver walls? when extracting???

Whatever the reason, it may be that “we have always done it, so why change?”

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#17

DocAV–Thanks for the expanded additions to my explanation for the “Undercut”. My information on the reason was given to me by Dave Andrews from CCI.

As to your comment "Whatever the reason, it may be that “we have always done it, so why change?”. The fact is it was not “always done”. It seems to have started in the mid-1930’s, at least based on my observations. The same cartridge made before then usually does not have the “undercut”. It must be covered by a patent. If we could find that, it would go a long way in explaining the “real” reason for it.

Can anyone document an earlier date than the mid-1930’s for a rimmed cartridge with an undercut?


#18

Ron: Your explanation of the rim undercut on American rimmed cartridges agrees with my own understanding. It is first found on the .30-40 Krag military cartridges shortly after 1900 and that may be its first actual use in regular production. The earliest specimen in my collection is a contract cartridge produced by UMC in 1906. I’m not sure what other European cartridges might show the undercut, but it is found on the Greek-made HXP .303 cases. Jack


#19

The Greek-Made HXP .303 cartridges were made after the HXP was upgraded to meet US “offshore-procurement” status, whereby One of the US manufacturers brought foreign manufacturers “Up to date” with US cartridge-making technology…usually only for .30/06, 7,62, and .50 cals (all rimless); but as the Greeks also wanted to make .303 for themselves, this technological upgrade ( case design and manufacture, Powder types, etc) was also applied to the .303…hence the “undercut rim” in .303 HXP. ( I think Olin Industries ( Winchester-Western) did most of the offshore procurement upgrades…as they did in India as part of the Military Aid program, and with PS in Korea.)…most of the European makers (SMI,FN,the German factories) already met the NATO standard for ammo, which was equivalent to US Overseas procurement Guidelines. I think Turkey also benefited from this technological aid ( for .30/06 and 7,62), being a close US-Nato ally.

Hence the Greek .303 ammo is Ball Powder loaded, and Boxer primed; and made looking like US "Military " ammo ( and an almost Clone of the Winchester-made Irish Republic contract .303 ammo, of the 1980s).

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#20

The undercut in front of the rim on otherwise rimmed cases seems, to me, to be simply a way to use case forming dies without a sharp corner at the rim. I think that this may be a manufacturing expedient to suit some manufacturers case forming methods. Perhaps they find that the brass flows easier and that the resulting radius in front of the rim can be removed at the rim turning stage, with an undercut to ensure that all of the radius is removed. About 50 years ago when I was an apprentice I showed samples of .303" cases, both with and without the undercut, to my lathe turning instructor and asked why they differed. He was also a small arms specialist and, after trying both types in a rifle, gave his considered verdict: “sloppy machining practice”.

In my .303" SMLE Mark III* I found that “proper” cases without the undercut usually ejected better, especially during rapid fire matches. This is because of the “progressive ejection” of the Lee Enfield. The extractor should push the emerging fired case across the boltface to rub against the tapering, curved, inner wall of the receiver. This drag tries to tip the case round to the right but it is held in place by the inside of the chamber. As soon as the case mouth is clear of the chamber it flicks smoothly out of the rifle, well before it meets the tip of the ejector screw. The ejector screw only comes into play with live rounds or drill rounds. This gives a very smooth rearward stroke to the bolt.

Some undercut cases do not behave in this way, though it is difficult to see why not. Either way, I use correctly shaped cases for rapid or snap shooting and keep the undercut ones for slowfire and practice only. It probably varies between rifles, my P’1914, being a Mauser type action is happy with either case type but nowhere near as smooth to shoot as a Lee Enfield.

The undercut is also a big problem for the old blackpowder cases in Mannlicher clips such as the 11.15 x 58R models 1885 and 1886 and the later 8mm clips. The rim drops into the undercut of the next round and jams the rifle. The undercuts have to be filled with epoxy or solder to make the cases serviceable.

gravelbelly

edited once to correct a typo