Misstamped 9x19 Winchester


#1

Hi! I have a 9x19 HP cartridge which is headstamped 9x18 MAK - apparently Makarov, but in fact it is 9x19 Para.


Is there someone who has seen something like that?


#2

IV40 - The main thrust of my collection is 9 mm Makarov, and I have never seen such a thing! I don’t even know how this could happen at Winchester in the USA, but I don’t think the 9mm could be Winchester manufacture, but rather Sellier & Bellot, because all of the Makarov to date made with the “WIN” headstamp has been made in the Czech Republic for Winchester. I do not know of any made in the USA by Winchester.

Also, I detect in your picture a red case mouth seal. Winchester does not generally use a visible case mouth seal. Further, the bullet does not appear to be a Winchester type, although it is hard to be sure of that.

I think what you have is a factory error (failure to change a headstamp bunter) on a Sellier & Bellot 9mm Para round, or something made for “in-house” use where they did not care that the bunter used was incorrect. I believe that it is much more likely to simply be the former, a bunter-use error, than the latter.


#3

Can I put a slightly different slant on this. Yes I think its a “bunter error” but in all probability the basic case forming for all the 9mm varient cases would be done on one line then trimmed to their appropriate length as required.

So the error probably occoured because the case(s) got in with a much larger batch that were being trimmed to 19mm and then went through to loading, packing and shipping un-noticed.

So just being pedantic I would say the actual error probably was made on the trimming line.

Same difference though. It makes it quite a find. Congratulations, how do you plan to spend your new found wealth?


#4

But the 9mm makarov has a slighly bigger diameter bullet.


#5

The final taper crimp which gives the case its finished diameter is put on after the bullet is loaded. All cases have to be slightly bigger than their final diameter before loading to ensure proper functioning of the machinery. Other than that I would doubt they actually made a special pressing for the MAK ( apart from headstamp obviously), manufacturing is all about economies of scale. All the other case dimensions except length are nominally the same.


#6

The 9 mm Makarov and 9 x 19 mm Para share the basic “Borchardt/Mauser 10 mm head and base,” but the Makarov is a straight-sided case, not tapered like the 9 mm Luger, and that is the source of its larger (.363/.364") diameter bullet. Even though I know what you mean, I think it is misleading to say that they nominally share the same measurements. Case mouth measurement of the straight 9 x 18 mm case is larger than that of the tapered 9 mm Para case.

My experience from the many case-draw sets I have for auto pistol calibers is that the headstamp is struck at some point after the first trimming. In the case of Sellier & Bellot 9 x 18 mm Makarov, for which I have a draw set, that is definitely the instance. The case from my set is 18.95 mm at that time.
The next draw piece is with the etractor groove cut and the case trimmed to final length. The East German draw set for the 9 x 18 mm is the same , but is 18.44 mm in length. This is from from Koenigswartha. This, to me, would indicate not a wrong case length in the machinery, but rather a wrong bunter. I would form the same opinion from the fact that the cartridge ended up a proper-length, properly formed 9 x 19 mm round loaded with a proper projectile for that caliber, not for the 9 x 18 Makarov. I think when considering the possibilities here, the case length maintained at the various stages of the drawing process is more significant than the case diameter.

JMHO


#7

Interesting! To the best of my knowledge, Winchester has not loaded or offered any JHP 9x18 Mak, just their FMJ ‘whitebox’ stuff.

I am admittedly not much of a ‘case stamp’ guy…but could the stamp actually be properly read/made as ‘NIM’ rather than ‘WIN’ ?


#8

MWinter - No - the stamp can only be read as “WIN” and is the normal headstamp on Winchester Makarov ammo made for them by Sellier & Bellot in the Czech Republic, along with some other metric calibers such as 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev and 7.62 x 54R Russian Mosin.


#9

John, I agree with you. I can’t imagine that S&B uses 9mmMAK headstamped ammunition in 9x19mm and sell it commercially. I think putting the incorrect caliber on the headstamp is probably illegal in a number of countries.

I suspect it is a test load from S&B or a production error of some sort where someone picked up a case draw stage in dropped it back in the wrong bin. The load sure looks S&B to me.

Iv4o,
Did this cartridge turn up in a box of 9x19mm loads? If so what was the headstamp on the rest of the cartridges in the box.

If it came from another source, I’d be very interested in the general circumstances.

I have seen the S&B pistol production for Winchester in 9mm MAK and 7.62mm, but have never seen an S&B WIN headstamp in 9x19mm.

Cheers,

Lew


#10

This round appears, in the pictures, to be a standard Sellier & Bellot HP 9mm Para cartridge and
the headstamp on the case is a standard contract headstamp by Sellier & Bellot on ammunition made
for Winchester by Sellier & Bellot. It has all the appearance of a simple headstamp bunting error like
dozens of others we have seen on ammunition throughout the years. Seems like a simple case of a
factory boo-boo to me, but then I’m a simple person. These factory errors are always interesting, but
I don’t see any controversy here.

Like Lew, I wish that all the circumstances known were given when threads like these are initiated.
That is, what were the circumstances of this round coming into private hands. If it came from an in-factory connection directly to some one, that could intimate circustances of production different from if it was found in a box of correctly headstamped Sellier & Bellot ammunition of of a dealer’s shelf. Giving
all the facts up front would probably answer a lot of of the questions raised straight away, and eliminate
a lot of guessing about something that gives the impression of a simple factory error that slipped past
inspection.


#11

That is true in Europe according to CIP specifications, which have the force of law.
Some years ago I was given a bunch of boxes of 9 mm centerfire shotshells made in Portugal that were seized in Spain because they bore no manufacturer’s name nor caliber on them.


#12

Guys, thank you very much for your answers. I’m not particularly familiar to the processes, that you’ve described. Unfortunately I cannot collect more information about the box and the cartridges that surrounded that particular round, because it is a gift from my friend, with whom I’m longer in contact. This round came to me about 6 or 7 years ago. I’m collecting various calibers, but 9x19 is very interesting for me thanks to its diversity. Sorry, but I can not trade it for now. But I’ll try to find that guy, who gave it to me and I’ll try to find some more info and eventually some more of this rounds. I live in Bulgaria and as far as I know the national psychology, we always try to buy cheaper things - cheaper than we can afford :) That 9x19 came with one LVE cartridge of the same caliber - the cheapest on the market at that moment. So I can suppose that misstamped cartridge was not much expensive than the LVE round at that time, and is probably a black market example. The guy who gave it to me said “Man, that thing punching a holes like fist in a target!”. So that is the whole inf that I have about it.

Take care and have fun!
Ivo


#13

Iv40, Many thanks for the story. That makes some things clearer. Even the biggest companies sometimes have things that come out of the back door.

Good luck with your collecting of 9mm Parabellum cartridges.

Cheers,

Lew