More British(?) 9mm Paras

My last thread showed some dingbat looking 9mmPs that were made up in Woolwich. The rounds below are from a collector here in the States who has been dead quite some time. Most are from his collection, though two are ones he traded to me at least 40 years ago (the red wood bullet and the massive GM bullet). The other’s I saw in his collection in 1970, except for the TH with the white wood bullet which I saw in the 1980s.

This collector had some wonderful 9mm’s in his collection and was in a position where he traded with collectors world wide before I began collecting seriously. I have a Lot of great rounds from him in my collection. He told these that they were experimentals from a very well placed individual in the UK, unnamed.

I have never seen another set of cartridges like this, except for the two he traded to me were also in his collection. I spent 3 years in the UK and never saw or heard of any of these rounds. I have had many impressive British collectors like Peter Labbett and others look at these and couldn’t shed any light on them. They are lovely and I keep them with my other British 9mms.

I’m looking for your thoughts…

Cheers, Lew

Lew - boy, you reaqlly know how to hurt a guy! I have never even seen any of these.

Seriously speaking, none of the headstamps seem to be out of the ordinary ball type (I can’t read them well - they appear washed-out on my screen, but my screen shows most things much lighter than, for example, they print out on my printer. A couple of the projectiles look like they would be very easy to make, and thus would pose no problem being made as fakes. I know a determined faker can make things limited only by his manual skills, but a couple fo the projectiles don’t look like they would be so easy to fake.

If I were to make an honest evaluation, based far more on the fact that Peter Labbett knew nothing about them than their appearance, I would say better than a 50-50% chance they are not legitimate, but not much above 50-50. Just my own view. If I had them, I would probably do what I do with some items - put them in their own row in my collection, apart from others, as “iffy” and unidentified. I would NOT dispose of them!

I don’t collect the 9mms but have seen quite a few - YIKE ! (that is a negative YIKE)

John and John, I doubt that any of these are legit. The series with aluminum bullets with plastic cores (including the one with the brass above the aluminum) bother me. If the test program was big enough to generate three types of bullets or more, I think Peter Labbett or Tony Edwards or Herb Woodend or Fred Mead or someone would have run across it as well connected as they were. I believe this was the same time period that Bill Woodin made his massive trip to England and he would have likely have turned them up—like the exotic NATO tracers and the other items he turned up on this trip.

The red wood bullet (it is solid wood) and the massive solid GM bullet were represented as limited production for a foreign country. Again, if they were actually production rounds I think some of the gentlemen above would have run across them. Finally, about the time the US collector got these rounds there was a “gentleman” in England that was the source of quite a few very questionable items and I have to wonder if he may have been the source of these! The sad truth is we will probably never know, but in the meantime I will keep them in the cabinet. At least they are pretty!!!