More Gun Show Finds

#1

Not in any particular order, but: I paid too much, I paid too litttle, I paid exactly what it was worth, I could almost be charged with thievery, and I am totally unsure, but they is cool, anyway… All four packages are unopened.

(1) Winchester .303 British R.A.F. Red Label:
Since this is dated 1942, what is the significance of “Synchronized Guns”? That sounds to me like a WWI Bi-Plane where the machineguns fire through the propeller.

(2) Winchester .303 British, had to get that as it is the brother of the R.A.F. load.

(3) 1968 Ball M 1911 WCC6028 .45 ACP Match

(4) 10 Cartridges SA BALL .410: Top left corner, paper slightly torn, looks like “4 4 43”
What does this part of the label mean:
“24 9 60
B.S.L.B. C.I.A.§ S.B.”

(5) .303, 1931, what is the “K”, and which is the Mk VII round?

(6) .45 ACP R.A. 42, is this an AP round?

(7) Kynock .455, no problen with that one!

(8) 7.62x25, with three crimp points, blank headstamp… Tokarev???

(9) IX 1938 Nazi marked, 9mm [which ?], .986"/25.04mm case length, 1.382"/35.12mm overall length, .357"/9.07mm bullet, and what does the “IX” mean?

Thanks!





#2

K = Kynoch
VII = Mk VII ball round. 174 grain bullet.

I cannot quite make out the year but I think 1931. Cannot be 1951, as it would only be a two digit date and the three stab crimps were replaced by the neck crimp in 1944. Also in 1944 the mark number would be stamped as 7.

#3

Thanks, and, Yes, 1931, sorry, I thunk I mentioned that… will edit accordingly.

#4

Your RA 42 round with red tip is a tracer. I don’t know of any AP loading used by the military in the caliber, .45 M1911.

That bottleneck pistol cartridge is probably a Tokarev, and likely Russian. Hard to tell from the small picture, as there are .30 Mauser rounds with the stab neck crimps and no headstamp, although they usually have CN or CNCS bullets, not GMCS.

The IX on you one round means the 9th Month of the year-date that appears on the headstamp. It is probably a 9 x 25 mm Mauser - I don’t relate to inch measuremnts in auto European pistol rounds, and too beat at the moment to “do the match” on the case length.

Some nice boxes there!

John Moss

#5

The Marking " Not for Synchronised Guns" was in use in British Empire/Commonwealth till the 1950s ( Canadian 7z, 1950) and related to the use of Biplanes (Swordfish) TPBs in RN, amongst other planes with Body mounted MGs to fire through Propeller arc.
It i9ndicated the ammo was NOT up to the Primer reliability standard necessary for thge timing of the Synchonisation Mechanism.

The Canadian example ( Crate) Had Marked " Not for Synchronised Guns AFTER dd/mm/1951…so was suitable within one year or so of Manufacture.
Similar Marks are found on .303 Mk7 supplied to Greece 1944–48, from Britiain, mostly Cordite, and similarly marked…ie, Not etch, or having a “Use By date”.

Most of the US Made .303 ( WRA and RA) was deemed suitable only for rifles (Home Guard) or for Ground Training of Air Gunners, and “Registering” Wing Guns ( all 8 Brownings pointing to PoA at 150-200 feet in front of Aircraft.) A Lot was “Palmed off” to Allied Nation troops armed with SMLEs etc.
Also, not for use in Vickers or even Bren or Lewis Guns…

DocAV

1 Like
#6

Thanks, Doc, that was my thought, but since I was sleep deprived, I was not sure my thought on biplanes was right.
Someone told me, and I quote, “It has something to do with primers and propellers.”, but could/would not elaborate further.

#7

Ahhh… red tip [tracer, I knew that], black tip [AP, I knew that, also], but I did once mention I am mostly colour blind.

Aw, c’mon, John, I ALWAYS give measurements in American and Foreigner numbers- I [well, my digital caliper] do the math for you!

Please refresh me on “CN or CNCS bullets, not GMCS”, my brain just quit any recall ability…

I thought NINE [IX] was too easy, figured it had to be maker mark of some sort…

Thanks, yes, I got lucky on the boxes, those two .303 were the only ones he had that were unopened.

BUT, when I looked at the .45 ACP box this morning, I saw that the flap was not sealed- just tucked in- and no sign that it ever was sealed.

Which brings me to the ‘weird’ that I have never seen… there is… something… on the .45 bullets, that looks like… I don’t even know how to describe it, (fuzz, fur, mould, fungus, nuclear waste?), and a little bit of corrosion on the brass, but there is no sign of damage [water, rot] or discolouration of the cardboard, and no obvious smell of rot: I hope it shows in the pictures.

The two rounds out of the box show as-is on the right, and wiped off with a tissue [wearing rubber gloves and a breathing mask] on the left. In the third picture I flipped two over so you might be able to see the slight corrosion of the brass.



#8

The terms CN, CNCS, GM and GMCS are non-techical terms often used based on the colot-tone of the bullet"

CN - Cupro-nickel
CNCS - Cupro-nickel clad steel
GM - Gilding Metal
GMCS - Gilding-metal clad steel

They are sufficiently accurate to describe a cartridge and came about before computers made sending actual pictures easy (for those who know hoe - I am not good ant anything to do with computers). They represent a common language sometimes frowned upon by the highly-technical collectors among us (not a criticism - they are a bit simplistic), but in my view, the represent an easy to remember and descriptive way to describe bullet jackets in converstations about cartridges. It is like CWS - Copper-washed steel. Many so-called CWS cases are not copper washed, but rather plated, but it is hard for some not expert in the metallurgical aspects of describing metal finishes to tell the difference, and the term CWS serves the purpose of describing a cartridge case of obvious copper finish and coloration. Again, a simple, common language.

Sorry about the mention of being to beat to convert inch to metric. I was very tired, as I am in the process of completely moving around files and revising my cartridge-box collection due to the acquisition of three more filing cabinets and a deep-drawer map cabinet of 5 drawers - tiring stuff for an 80-year old. I honestly didn’t notice that you had used both inch and metric measurements, something I try to do as well, although sometimes “short cut” for one reason or another. I apologize for not seeing what was there plain to see. At least I was right that the pistol cartridge in question (IX) is a 9 x 25 cartridge.

Edited to correct a typo spelling error only.

John Moss

#9

John, thanks, and- moreimportantly- my FIRST 9mm Mauser has Nazi marks!

#10

And this is my final win at the gun show today… 5.7x28 FN~
As I was eating lunch an old friend walked over and put these four rounds in my hand.

Two are VERY magnetic AP rounds, and two are 61 gr Penetrators.

The two AP rounds are FN, (which I am constantly told are not available to anyone but Military and Police, (anyone have one of those also UN-available aluminum bullet rounds thay can part with?

The other two, with 62 gr.Penetrators, I was told were an experiment, and warned they are decidedly UNsafe to shoot…
They loaded five, and the first blew up upon chambering, blowing out the top and destroying the magazine and the next round in line, leaving only three in existance.