More interesting 9mmPs


#1

Here are a couple of more 9mmPs and to show that I am not totally single minded, a 10mm.

Left to Right:

  1. This is apparently a Fiocchi load but who is “GR”? These arrived in a plain commercial Fiocchi box so they are probably production overruns but for who???

  2. is the Kilgore Ammunitions Products Frangible (LE/Military only) they have manufactured flare cartridges since the 1960s or earlier but this is their first venture into SAA. They are almost impossible to get stuff out of.

  3. This is the DoubleTap 230gr Equalizer duplex load @ 1040fps with a lead ball behind the HP bullet.

Enjoy!!!


#2

GR = GREIF made by Fiocchi for: SK Jagd und Sportmunition GmbH Sch


#3

Great, Thanks!!! Is there a box label with this information??? Other documentation for my files???

Appreciate the help.

Lew


#4

It is a little bit confusing. This ammo was sold by Deurus surplus wholesale company very very cheap. Deurus didnt make ammo, but sales all sorts of lots and low price ammo. These lot of Fiocchi made cases might be loaded in Sch


#5

Lew - See ECRA 407-16 and ECRA 415-7. The first entry is from Peter Petrusic announcing the new brand name of “Greif” being used by the former firm of Nimrod, of Schoenebeck, Germany. He said the cartridges were being made by Dynamit A.-G. Item 415-7, from our friend Rob de Heer corrects the impression that they are made by Dynamit, and shows a picture of the very, very standard Fiocchi box that they were found in.

De Heer wrote Fiocchi about this cartridge in November 1998, but received no reply. He felt it was an error on Fiocchi’s part - that they had not intended to ship the rounds in those boxes. I am wondering if it was not simply a failed contract, with Fiocchi disposing of the ammunition under their own name to recoup any losses in their production? Pure conjecture on my part. As you know there is a “GREIF 9x19” headstamp made by MFS of Hungary for the Schoenebeck firm.

De Heer, by the way, does not dispute the identification that the Fiocchi-made “GR” headstamp was intended for Greif, as far as I know. He certainly does not in his reply to Petrusic in ECRA 415-7.


#6

Well we ordered some 10000 rd for our shooting club because the rd comes for about 12 Euro cent…
The boxes are from Fiocchi and a swiss retailer told me the GR marked Fiocchi cases where loaded by Sellier and Bellot for the Sch


#7

What was the headstamp on these nickeled “Dynamit” cases found in the Fiocchi boxes?

Some Fiocchi metallic ammunition offered now is from Hungary, and so marked on the boxes. I have 9x18mm Makarov with Fiocchi headstamp but made in Hungary. However, that post-dates the “GR” ammunition. Formally, I believe, the factory that Fiocchi had interest in, in Hungary, only made shotgun shells to my knowledge.

I am surprised to hear that there were problems whether the ammunition was made in Hungary or Italy. I have fired a lot of ammunition made by Fiocchi, and find it excellent. I have also had no problems with Hungarian ammunition, imported into the USA, from MFS.


#8

Dynamite Nobel used the brand GECO on the 9mm ammo.


#9

The Dynamit Nobel company was destroyed in 2004 and the small arms ammunition chapter was bought by RUAG. The brands RWS, GECO and
Rottweil are now under RUAG direction.

Heres the actual produced army and police ammo datasheets for download.

ruag.com/ruag/juice?pageID=147483


#10

I asked the question because a well placed police source who provided me with this box told me 50K rounds of this ammo was made and sold in Africa!!! I wonder who sold it in Africa??? Who was it sold too??? The source couldn’t/wouldn’t say.


#11

[quote=“Ohms”]GR = GREIF made by Fiocchi for: SK Jagd und Sportmunition GmbH Sch


#12

My Data-base is CartWin by Narinus Knap Holland
Link to the Homepage.
http://www.cartwin.com/


#13

[quote=“Arthemis”][quote=“Ohms”]GR = GREIF made by Fiocchi for: SK Jagd und Sportmunition GmbH Sch


#14

I think, a lot of things where mixed up here…
Deurus is a whole seller, and Germania is their counterpart, selling to individuals.
Greif is the Brandname of Deurus, and the only ammo they actually ever HAD, was made up by MFS (not Fiocchi, that was a mistake). This was a 9mm Luger by a FULL written name of GREIF in the headstamp.
Boxes where Black, with red and white writings and marks.

GR was never ever ordered from them by Fiocchi, nor was this type of brand distributed by them. It was something else from Fiocchi, not in the name and NOT FOR Deurus.

Most of this ammo with the complete written name : GREIF was sold to the UAR, Middle-East.

What was mentioned from Genkideskan here, about the cheap “Greif” ammo in so marked boxes -White boxes with green writings GREIF-:

They have nothing to do, with the original loads from MFS for Deurus.
This are (reloads) loads from SM, Chemnitzer Patronenfabrik (*) (NOT SK!!! Sch


#15

Peter, Many thanks for sorting out this story. I was getting confused since some of the info posted was not consistant with what I had previously documented and I couldn’t sort out what is correct.

In today’s world with dealers like and brands like LEADER and Olympic who acquire ammunition or components from multiple sources, it is easy to have bad information float into the community. I have seen identifications that are simply and obviously WRONG, remain in the community and be passed on for decades.

We all need to be more careful when we ascribe ammunition and headstamps. Simple statements on the source of the identification to a box or a catalog or whatever is as important as the information itself.

Identification of a headstamp is a complex issue. Who made made the case? Who was it made for? I have come to believe any source that identifies should provide the substantiation of the identification. I have not done that well in my 9nmmP headstamp guide and will correct that in the next edition. None of us are right all the time so we should indicate the basis for our identifications. If something is a conclusion or an assertion or an assumption, it should be so identified!!! The assertion that GR=GREIF=SK is fact certain is troubling. There is bad information in a lot of our reference material because there has not been an effort to lay out the basis for an identification. We all need to try to be more careful in this area.


#16

Lew,
but in this case I had a small home advantage …:-)
As I knew R.K. (Chief of DEURUS) very well, I knew the whole story of the development of this DEURUS/GREIF brandname, also the Story from LEADER.
LEADER brandname is hold -or lately bought- by J