Mystery small CF pistol cartridge


#1

Just found two small CF pistol cartridges I set away from my “bought” box. Went to Erlmeier-Brant. One is a .22 Long CF and is marked on the case wall with the alternate name of 22-3-30. The other one is longer and marked on the case wall 22-4-30. Do not see a cartridge with the dimensions of the longer one in any of my books.

Gourd


#2

Could you poat some dimensional data of the longer one?

Pivi


#3

Pivi, the dimensions of the cartridge are:

Case length, 18.85mm .742 inch. Over all length, 23.86mm .939 inch

Case mouth, 6.06 mm .238 inch Base dia, 6.07 .239 inch

Rim dia, 7.00 mm Rim thickness, 1.11 mm .043 inch

Lead round nose bullet Bullet dia 5.49 mm .216 inch

Copper primer approximately 4.01 .158 inch dia

No hdst

Gourd


#4

It is very similar to 5.75 mm velo dog short,altough its dimensional data don’t match those found on my Brandt’s book.


#5

Pivi, this cartridge is almost an intermediate size between the short and normal Velodog cartridge. Any French collector know what this is?

Gord


#6

[quote=“gamgjm”]Pivi, this cartridge is almost an intermediate size between the short and normal Velodog cartridge. Any French collector know what this is?

Gord[/quote]
try to put a picture
jp


#7

Gourd,

In “Cartridge Case” by Andresen, Andresen & Stromstad they list a .22-4-30 Eley Long (.220 Rook, .220 Long Center Fire). The dimension are very similar to yours except they list the rim diameter as 7.5mm. Listed as: ca 1875-1878 year of origin, rifle cartridge, British.

Paul


#8

Paul, you might be correct. Never thought to look in Flemming, British Sporting Rifle Cartridges. He lists the dimensions of the 22 long centerfire within the normal tolerance of my cartridge. Even to the weight. Flemming lists the primer diameter as a little bigger. Measuring the primer is just a guess anyway as even with a loupe it is not certain and European primers are a little different size anyway. Am guessing my cartridge is European made as it does not have a headstamp. The British almost always had a hdst no matter how small the cartridge.

Gourd


#9


22 LONG AND SHORT CENTRE FIRE or [220 LONG and SHORT]
OR
22 -4 - 30 [LONG] and 22 - 3 - 30 [SHORT]
British ROOK RIFLE cartridges.
These cartridges were taken from ELEY packets when purchased some years ago.
Rim dia. .277[a tiny bit over 7mm], Case length .745 [long] bullet dia .220
Case length .520 [short] Copper primer .177 from insides of annalus.
measurements taken from a couple of my examples.

This scan was originally posted some time ago and I am glad I had it as these new light bulbs we are using [fluorescent ] as opposed to [incandescent]
which are about to be outlawed in Australia, really don’t do a thing when scanning in my office.
Terry.

                                Terry.

#10

Terry, Those sure look like my cartridges and fit the dimensions. Like the comment on the light bulbs. Have done photography for over 60 years and had many “green” photo’s before I learned to use a filter with florescent light! That’s the reason scanners and photocopiers use Halogen lamps because they come very close the the Kelvin degree of the sun. Serviced copiers almost from their beginning. Are your cartridges British make? See they do not have headstamps. Just assumed mine were European because of the lack of hdst.

Gourd


#11

Gamgjm

your shorter cartridge without hds could had been made by Fiocchi

Pivi


#12

I have a note saying from Eley packets, but it was a while ago and upon reflection they were from a single plain cardboard two peice packet with Eley label.
The cartridge divisions were missing and the person I obtained these off had mixed, short and long rounds in the box so can not be sure.
I have other round which I obtained as single rounds without ID.
Under a 10 power magnifier the primers and primer seating of both the short and long appear to be identical, the only visible difference is the projectile on the short is crimped where the projectiles on the longs is seated without crimping.
And I have many examples of unheadstamped British cartridges both from ELEY and KYNOCH, particually in smaller calibres and revolver rounds that came from original packets. eg. 320CF long and short, 442 CF revolver, 250-300 rook, 320-230 rook, 297-230 rook, 298 Westly Richards mini express and 300 rook to mention just a few. but do not have any examples in the larger calibres of British made cartridges without headstamps without including very early 577,s and cartridges with disc base construction…
Terry.


#13

[quote=“Pivi”]Gamgjm
your shorter cartridge without hds could had been made by Fiocchi
Pivi[/quote]

Hi Pivi !
Why do you say that ???
Have you any document showing these ctges without headstamp made by Fiocchi ?

JP


#14

Yes,I have seen some of these cartridges from an old box made by fiocchi and they were without headstamps.However,I said “could had been made” because it could be also possible that the last proprietary put ammo made by other factories in a box made by fiocchi.

Pivi


#15

Thought someone would pick up on the 320-230 and add to my limited knowledge of these rounds.
I was given a single round among other rounds in 2002 and spent a lot of time trying to identify it, then a prominent and very advanced Australian collector told me what it was. A CF rook rifle cartridge with the parent cartridge being the 320 long.
In 2006 I revisited the don-er of this cartridge, as on the phone he was unsure of what I was on about as he was in his mid 80’s and had other things on his mind.
As soon as he observed the cartridge he produced a box containing 6 rounds of the same, and although he had promised this box and cartridges to another smitten with the cartridge bug, he gave me another round, I now have two rounds.
The interesting part was the explanation that came with it, his father was a collector of odd cartridges in the early part of the 1900’s and acquired these cartridges when in England, [ WW1 veteran ] and as the "story " goes they were an attempt by ELEY to offer something different and capture some of the market for ROOK RIFLE CARTRIDGES from KYNOCH.
As I have been given some very rare and exotic rounds by the same benefactor I have no reason to doubt his explanation, but all my attempts to find more information [including posting measurements, etc on the IAA forum have been without result.
The rounds were from a ELEY box, and resemble the 297-230 with a much higher shoulder and the base of the cartridges is very obviously a 320 CF.
A casual glance would have one think that they were 297-230, but with closer inspection it is very obvious that the parent cartridge was the 320 long. And a couple of years ago I tried to chamber the first round in a beautiful Belgium made 297-230 rifle [looked like a miniature Martini] only to confirm that it or they are a different round.
Hoping someone with and advanced knowledge of British Rook Rifle or Sporting Cartridges reads this and confirms or denies, as I have a very big QUESTION MARK hanging over these rounds, the only thing I am reasonably sure of is that the parent case was the 320 CF long, and the projectile .although very marginally longer is the same calibre as the projectile of the 297-230. and the shoulder is much higher than the 297-230
FISHING FOR INFORMATION.
Terry.


#16

Terry,

I know very little about Rook Rifle cartridges. The only thing I can add about the .320/.230 Rook is what I found in Fleming’s “British Sporting Rifle Cartridges”, which isn’t much. The were made by Eley and loaded in ball, shot and blank rounds. The ball loading were with both black and smokeless powders. The date of origin was listed as pre 1881.


#17

Thanks Rimfire, Confirms for me earlier information.
Terry.