NAZI MARKED BOX OF EUROPEAN 9mm AMMO DATED 1941


#1

There is an interesting item on Gun Broker this morning. It is a box of the old Canadian 9mm made for the Agency “9 MM 41” from the description (fired cases only) but at some point someone put a stamp on the top with a Nazi Eagle, correctly identifying it as “DI” made and it looks to me like a “Field phone number 56509”

Perhaps one of our German speaking members can provide a better description of this stamp. I think it is a clever bit of advertising from the time (probably early 1960s).

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=438108159

I think the stamp was by the original dealer and has his phone number. Has anyone seen one of these before?

Cheers,
Lew


#2

Lew,

It say Feldpostnummer 56509.
A post stamp. Think it was made for upgrading the box.

I think the FPN’s can be found in;

axishistory.com/

Rgds
Dutch


#3

Beware, this type of stamp is also showing up on 8x56mmR boxes from the late 1930’s (German occupation) at recent gun shows. The ink stampings, looked to me, to be very fresh and in my opinion this is a modern deliberate adulteration of period ammunition boxes.


#4

My guess is that bdgreen and dutch are correct on the stamp beeing ‘new’…
These fake stamps are here found in large numbers, so easily put on anything…


#5

If the ammo is dated 1941, there is no question about this being fake. It would have to contain the “9 MM 41” headstamp, which was likely made in the 1950s in my opinion. The pilot lot of 9 mm ammunition made in Canada was made by the Dominion Cartridge Company in 1942, the first year Canada made this caliber cartridge. Headstamp “DC 42 9MM.”

Since it is offered for sale with no Caveat that the stamp is a fake, I consider the box and the offering of it to now be in the absolute “fake” class.

It it could be had for, say, one dollar or less, it might be an interesting enough phony to toss in the fake section of a collection.

I cannot translate the top part of that stamp. Can one of our German friends complete the translation made earlier on the Forum?

The interesting thing about this box is that someone dumb enough to stamp it like this, would pay to have a rubber stamp made and even knew the ammo was made by “DI” if that is, indeed, what the two initials beginning the top line stand for. If the don’t, it is some coincidence!


#6

That dealer is known on a few gun sites as “Gray Blanket”, and has a widely believed reputation for faking items.


#7

The stamp is normally used for military mail and has the unit mail number on. Nothing that is attributed to ammunition but as it has the magic swastica on (= magic price) it will sell so much better to the clueless swastica freaks out there. I think people who buy such stuff deserve it!
Obviously the “maker” does not speak any German or is relying on his potential customers not to know German + being clueless about German ammo.


#8

EOD is correct about this stamp being on military mail, as well as on military documents. Stamp was created for German Feldpost WWII era. (Collecting stamps is also a small hobby of mine)


#9

John,

The top part of the stamp is dammaged when reproduced, as it should read ‘Dienststelle’ (meaning: department)

I also discovered a fake German ‘verleihungsurkunde’ wit exactly the same altered stamp… (ps: these fake stamps are available in Europe for less than $20)


#10

Orpheus - thank you for the translation. I feel very foolish. While I do not speak German, I am familiar with a lot of German words, including Dienststelle.

Why I did not see that is beyond me! Well, we now can plainly see that since “DI” is not a reference to Canadian ammunition, the stamp obviously has no connection to ammunition inspection. Just a fake, and like many, a poor one at that.

Thanks again.


#11

Orpheus, “Dienststelle” here shall mean “duty station” or in some other cases “office” or “agency” depending on the context.


#12

I’m not certain that he personally fakes stuff, but he certainly does buy & sell lots and lots of German / WWII military & ammo items, especially Nazi related. I think he just has no filter or regard for seemingly questionable items, and sells off everything he buys via large auction / estate sale which is interesting (Nazi related or WWII ammo) on Gunbroker. He does generally seem to ignore cautionary emails sent about fake items which raises a red flag.


#13

This type of round rubber stamp is called a “Dienstsiegel” (official seal) in German and used as such on official documents. The typical use would be as shown on the Kriegsverdienstkreuz document. Without the seal the document would be invalid.
Normally a Dienstsiegel shows the official name of the unit, like “Heimat-Artillerie-Park 11” and should have a small number at 6 o’clock which is unique within the unit. So every seal should be traceable to its authorized user. (Same applies to the German civil service.)
During the war, instead of formation names in clear the Feldpostnummer of the formation came into use and instead of the actual type of the unit the global designation Dienststelle was used.

I have seen fake Dienstsiegel stamps offered many times in Germany and Europe. Gestapo fakes of course being much more expensive than military unit fakes.


#14

Matt,
He’s also very well-known on the Gunboards Japanese Forum.


#15

WELL DONE!!!

I was fooled by the “DI” at the top into thinking that perhaps it was someone’s idea of a cute way to add their old phone number to a box. Remember, when & where I grew up we told the operator the 4 digit phone number we wanted!

I guess I didn’t think anyone would add such a obvious fake marking to a box of Canadian ammo! I’ve added this box to my watch list so I can see what attention it attracts.

Hope the seller reads this. I sent him the URL for this thread when I wrote him this morning telling him his title was wrong.

Cheers,
Lew


#16

When I first posted this, I also wrote the seller and told him that what he had was not what he was describing. I basically laid out what I covered in my original post, but in a lot more detail. Yesterday afternoon I received the following in an email.

[quote]thanks for the info and help, we just ended the auction as i don’t want to have a fake item, will just give it away, thanks also for watching my auctions

Thank You,
[/quote]

Frankly, I was very surprised. I have written before on falsely advertised items and have seldom gotten a reply and few of the replies have been positive. A good example is the 9mm for the King of Qatar that is still being sold on auctions.

The reply from this seller renewed my faith a bit! At least this guy seems honest.

Cheers,
Lew


#17

Nicely done Lew! At least the seller now knows genuine people are out there spotting errors in items, so others don’t get ripped off!


#18

However, he says that he will give it away. This means that the item is still out there to cause confusion later.