Need Copy of Eley 1913 Price List or Catalog Cover


#1

I am doing some research on the Eley 9mm P ammo and am trying to confirm the Eley logo used in 1913. The logo apparently changed to the “E” in a square backed by a rotated square with four small Es between 1912 and 1914 catalogs. Ideally I need the cover page of either the Eley 1913 price list or catalog.

Lacking either of these documents, any 1913 dated Eley documents with the logo in the heading would be useful.

Any help appreciated!!!


#2

Hi Lew
I have copies of the 1910-11, 1912, an undated but what I think is 1913 and the 1914 Eley catalogues. The Eley logo of a shield with a mongrammed EBL within is used on the cover of all of them. Only the 1914 has the E within a square as you describe, but it seems to be only for decorative purposes at the corner of each page, The actual logo of the shield remains the same.

John P-C may have some better info as I know he has several catalogues. If you want scans of the covers of what I have let me know.

Regards
TonyE


#3

Tony, John & everyone else,

Tony, thanks for the info. The price list I have a copy of is below. I’m trying to research the date of production of an Eley box (9mmP of course) which has the “Square E” logo in the top two corners, just like the 1914-1915 catalog. Am looking for ANY INFORMATION on how much earlier this logo was in use, ideally when it was introduced.

ALL INFORMATION APPRECIATED.

Tony, I would appreciate copies of the covers of your 1912 and undated price lists. Is it possible to look at the prices in the three lists (1912, undated & 1914) to see if the undated one is probably 1913???


#4

Lew - I am probably telling you something you already know. Forgive me if I am. I don’t have the 1913 Eley catalog or the 1914-15 catalog for which you show the cover. However, I do have the Price List for Eley Brothers Ltd. for February 1st, 1914, which shows the trademark in question - the “E” in a square, over another tilted square with little “E’s” in the corners.

Do not assume that a cartridge called “9mm Automatic” in these catalogs is the 9mm Parabellum. It is not. It is the 9mm Browning Long cartridge. In the British catalogs, that is the way that caliber is identified. 9mm Parabellum is clearly identified as such - “9mm Parabellum” and is not shown at all in my 1914 Price list.

Am not trying to read into what you are doing. That may not have been the point of your inquiry at all and I realize that. Just a caution.

Unfortunately, my next Eley Catalog is a reprint done in South Africa, and they did not reproduce the cover of the catalog, a big mistake in my opinion.

By the way, the logo in question does not appear anywhere in the 1910 Eley price list No. 83 (mine is, however, a reprint, but I assume that it is an accurate copy of the original).

Some other thoughts. The 9mm Para cartridge is not on my Eley cartridge board, which is circa 1914. In the book “Eley Cartridges,” by C. W. Harding, Appendix E, “A list of metallic cartridges produced by Eley Bros. extracted from their catalogues between 1885 and 1919” the 9mm Para cartridge is not shown. The catalogs used in that were (I have not bothered to identify the early ones before the existence of the 9mm cartridge)…1901, 1902, 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907/08, 1908/09, 1910/11, 1912/13, 1914/15 and 1919. By 1924, all metallic cartridge production had moved to Kynoch Ltd.

In Appendix A of the above book, “List of cartridges in metallic loading book upon closure of Eley Brothers Ltd. Factory in London,” the 9mm Parabellum cartridge is shown in two loadings, although the loadings are not described. Unfortunately, without reading the entire book, I have not been able to find the date the London factory closed. Perhaps Tony or John P-C can supply that. The book has a remarkably poor table of contents. I cannot find a closure date in any of my other Eley references, some published by Eley, either. If we assume that the London factory was closed circa 1924-1926 and that the catalog listings mentioned in Appendix E are correct (no 9mm Para listed up to 1919), then the Eley 9mm Para round should date from between about 1920 and 1924. The 9mm box in question shows “Eley Brothers, Limited, London” as the address.

One other point - there probably were not a lot of 9mm Parabellum caliber pistols in England until WWI supplied a quantity of souvenir pistols of that caliber. the Eley headstamp is a commercial form of marking, and probably they would not have produced commercial pistol ammunition, especially for a caliber new to their production, during WWI. That would lead one to believe that the 9mm para production by Eley began after the cessation of hostilities in November 1918. That is, if the ammunition was not made before WWI, and again, no record seems to exist for that, or at least no price list or catalog references.

It sure would be nice to see an Eley factory drawing for this cartridge. We have several Kynoch drawings.

Of course, that is one heck of a lot of assumptions. All just food for thought, nothing more.

John Moss


#5

Hi Lew and John

Sorry for the delay in posting these images, but the mystery deepens slightly.

Your 1914 list with the square Eley logo is No.85, but my (dated) 1912 list is No.84. This suggests there was not a 1913 list.
Here is No.84.

I also have the Export Price List No.44 which is 1914 and also has the square Eley logo.

The final one is this undated one. It is only a photocopy and the inside page is missing. However it includes the .303 Mark VII so it is post 1910 and since we have the 1910/11, 1912 and 1914 lists, I suspect it might be an interim 1913 list. The prices in all of them are much the same so the sequence cannot be identified that way.

I leave it to you to make what you can of this.

I agree with John that there appears to be no Eley listing of the 9mmP prior to the war. In fact the first listing I can think of is the Vickers contract drawing you already show on your website. I shall have a good look through the drawings I have to see if I can find an earlier one.

Regards
Tony


#6

This is the earliest Eley drawing of the 9mmP I can find, October 1919. I do not think it is a manufacturing drawing though as it appears to be simply a copy of the 1910 Kynoch drawing AQ12 - 69 which I also have.

The Eley drawing:

The Kynoch drawing:

Regards
TonyE


#7

I had a chat with John Pople-Crump this evening (he is back in the UK for a short spell on family business) and he confirmed that Eley did not start loading 9mmP until post war. He has checked the Eley Loading Book and says it states loading of 9mmP commenced in January 1920.

John also believes that Eley started loading 9mmP before Kynoch, as by then they were both part of Explosive Trades Ltd.

Regards
TonyE


#8

Tony, and John P-C - once in awhile, its nice to be right. I just looked at everything I had here on Eley and the Eley 9.P, including my own circa 1914 Eley Cartridge Board, catalogs. a couple of histories of Eley, etc., and came up with the 1920 earliest to 1924 latest possible production dates for this round. Sometimes when I have applied logic and stuff from my library, I have proved to be dead wrong. Of course, who ever said I was logical! Thanks guys for nailing this down for us. I was as interested as Lew in this.

John M.


#9

Thanks to all for the great research!!! The box we were trying to run down had a date stamp of EO MM X which is 19 November 1920 according to the Eley date codes listed in the IAA Journal from about a year ago! John’s infro below and the great info from Tony E and John P-C pretty well wraps it up. Many thanks!!!

John Moss post on Eley Date Codes:
“As far as I can tell from IAA Journal Issue 449, May/June 2006, Page 38, the code EO MM X should stand for 29 (EO) 11 (MM) 20 (X) which would be the 19th of November 1920. If that is the code on the Eley 9mm box in question, and I am reading the IAA Journal correctly, that would put the manufacture of the Eley 9mm Para cartridge right in the years that I postulated might be the spread of years of manufacture of this ammunition. If we are talking about something else here, then I will go back to the drawing board!”