Need help in ID 7,62x39 tracer


#1

I have a strange round. Maybe it’s fake. Case as I understand the Hungarian production(code 21 85). But in the bullet have any questions. Was there such an option with nickel-coated bullet. As I recall nickel plated bullets only in Czechoslovakia. Maybe it’s just collecting the layout of the components of different countries. The cartridge was no gunpowder.
Thanks for any suggestions.


#2

Seems to be not fully original, or the bullet is polished. On the bullet there is no trace of neck sealant lacquering where should be. In Hungary only tombak plated tracer bullets were made, no nickel plating was used.


#3

I asked aback to Hungary quite some time ago and the guys there said this is some altered or home grown product. Definately nothing made in Hungary. Maybe some gun show load.


#4

Maybe an Argentinian APT in .308???


#5

Nope, not argy for sure, seems to be original hungarian, but… maybe a 7.62x54r bullet ?.


#6

I do agree with that, now that I look at it better.


#7

Nope, not argy for sure, seems to be original hungarian, but… maybe a 7.62x54r bullet ?.[/quote]

Neither Hungarian nor 7.62x54R. The projectile seems to be a 7.62x39 T-45 with a polished off surface or new coating. Have seen similar B-32M API from 7.62x54R over here in Europe, they were all silver colored and came from a demil plant.


#8

This are definately bullets from SM plant (refurbished bullets from demil.processing and afterwards cleaned, tumbled and mickelplated…They use any bullets,tracers, and as EOD mentioned also B-32 MN-Bullets…

I have plenty of them, as that was in the beginning the only way to get BZ (7,62x39) and API B-32 bullets for our testing of amour-plates…
but it was a pain in …to sort all the different types out, as they usually where all mixed together. They sold that as “plinker” bullets, but havent mentioned to the “normal” buyer, that they can go to jail, if they load an AP/API or Tracer bullet into a case. Since a while,they (SM) have stopped selling this, as they are now aware of the problems, which may occur…for them and others…
The possesing of just bullets is not reglemented here, as long the bullet is less than 20mm in caliber…AND a civilian gun exist in the caliber in question…Means in fact, no “free” bullets for example as an 8mm Breda-Tracer or Incendiary Bullet…because there is no civil gun in this caliber. AK47, 74 or Mosin-Nagant bullets with tracer, API s.a.o. is not a problem,as there are civilian guns in this caliber in Germany,
but in the very moment, you load with this bullets a live round, you are running into violation of the warmaterial control act(minimum “fee” 1 year jail term)… Just a small excours into german gun laws,besides the EU-Laws already implemented. By EU-Law, this bullets are categorized into class “A” and it is generally forbidden, to cross EU-Borders with this bullets, except you have a real export-license…(Most collectors even here are not aware of that)…Inside Germany they are up to yet “free” as mentioned, as long your are not building your ammo with it…
Back to the question:
So, this pictured bullet in the beginning question is one of this bullets from SM-source and someone just repainted it, as it is a real AK47 Tracer-bullet.

Forensic

Nope, not argy for sure, seems to be original hungarian, but… maybe a 7.62x54r bullet ?.[/quote]

Neither Hungarian nor 7.62x54R. The projectile seems to be a 7.62x39 T-45 with a polished off surface or new coating. Have seen similar B-32M API from 7.62x54R over here in Europe, they were all silver colored and came from a demil plant.[/quote]


#9

It is a very original-looking paint job.


#10

Jon, this is what fakers are using for dipping the tips (in mix with transparent laquer to make it more durable):

wild24.de/index.php?main=ar … ne=froogle

Depending on other colors even regular laquer is used.

So be aware.

Recently we had German WWII 20mm and 30mm rounds for sale in a gun-auction site. The paint jobs were looking like 100% original (I seldomly admit this when looking at fakes) but fortunately the faker had no clue about this type of ammunition and it’s markings.

In the past years I had to learn that a single original looking ferature only is no guarantee for ruling out items as a fake.
Spotting fakes requires a broad knowledge on the particular items and likely plenty of it’s variations. Besides this one will need to know about metallurgy, metal works, tools, ammunition production as in relaity, machine tool marks, stencilling and engraving, chemistry and paints, paper and printing (for boxes and labels or paper patches as well as for those cartridges with “paper caes” ) and last but not least about inner and outer ballistics when it comes to what is shaped how and for what reason. (have seen “experimental” fantasy fakes in the past which would not fit a gun and had other ballistic “no gos” - this mostly on medium calibers).
Luckily almost all (unfortunately not all) fakers do not have all of the skills/expertise/tools mentioned above and fail on the one or the other subject giving us a chance to ID the items in question.

Unfortunately our community is doing way too little against fakers. We had plenty of dicussions on “reproductions” and honest people, I would not see the neccessity to repeat this part here. We all know what fakes are and what I wrote above is to be seen in this spirit.