Need Help To ID Meaning Of Colors On These 20MM Solothum

I have a good friend who was given these three 20mm Solothum rounds by a museum to prepare a display for them. He asked me if I could help him interpret the meaning of the different colored projectiles. Hoping that one of the IAA Member Experts can help :-) Thanks big time!

Jason

Jason,

Without seeing the headstamps this is only a guess, 20 x 128mmB on the left with dark blue projectile and a white stripe is possibly a Finnish AP with tracer. The others may be German AP with tracer.

Brian

Jason, to start with, and that should matter for the museum then; these are 20x138B RHEINMETALL and not Solothurn.

Left:
AP-T Finland (for AT rifles)
Centre and right: TP-T, made in Germany for export to Sweden (for AT rifles)

Thank you both so much! Very, very grateful for your help ID’ing these! Is Solothurn a type of gun or the ammunition manufacturer?

Thanks again, Big Time!

Jason

Solohurn was a weapon manufacturer and was established as a remote sales platform of Rheinmetall.

Solothurn itself never made ammunition nor were they related to the development of the cartridge in any way.

Thank you, Alex!

You always blow me away with you intense array of ammunition and historical knowledge on almost every ammunition subject matter in all time periods and covering all nationalities!

Jason

On the 2cmFlak site they mention that the center one is made for the Dutch Army.

flak2cm.com/start.php?main_c … ub_cat=151

451kr.

While Swedish documents are known to confirm these to be TP-T for Swedish service I have not seen any comparative docs confirming a Dutch connection.
Also such cartridges are known to bear later applied Swedish ink markings.
If any Dutch docs are around it would be most interesting to study them.

Following up on, Brian’s request to see the headstamps, I asked for a 2nd picture. The rounds are in the same order as the 1st photograph.

Jason

Here Is A Enlarged & Cropped HS View

The head stamps of the cases confirm what is said before (left Finnish and 2 Swedish). I will check if I have any documentation on the Dutch 20x138B. It is believed over here that the rounds identified as Swedish are possibly Dutch, and sold for prices as such (Dutch 20x138B is very rare).

I do have 3 digital Solothurn drawings with Dutch text, but I never got images to load on this website.

Hoeksel, is there Dutch documentation stating this color to be used in Dutch service? And were such cartridges ever found in Dutch marked crates?
Existing Dutch drawings of the projectile type which was the Rheimetall standard do not ID these cartridges here as Dutch then.
All the cartridgess known today came from Sweden to the US as shooting ammo.

I think I have to correct my prior statement on the brown ones being TP-T as the Swedish 1942 manual is listing them as AP-T.
EDIT: it still is TP-T

[quote=“EOD”]Hoeksel, is there Dutch documentation stating this color to be used in Dutch service? And were such cartridges ever found in Dutch marked crates?
Existing Dutch drawings of the projectile type which was the Rheimetall standard do not ID these cartridges here as Dutch then.
All the cartridgess known today came from Sweden to the US as shooting ammo.
[/quote]

Is it not proved that Netherlands took deliveries of Solothurn S-18/1000 20mm Antitank weapons in 20x128B ?
and in such case what ammo would they then have used ?

I understands your point in that it does not consist a positive proof, but I still find it possible, even if statistically a round found today would have a huge probability of not being Dutch.

the reason I ask is that I thought Sweden took over deliveries of the Dutch order in 1940.
That was of course not documented in the official contracts.

[quote=“EOD”]
All the cartridgess known today came from Sweden to the US as shooting ammo.

I think I have to correct my prior statement on the brown ones being TP-T as the Swedish 1942 manual is listing them as AP-T.

[/quote]

Actually the middle slpprj m/39, yellow tipped round are produced in Switzerland, according to to text in the Swedish 1949 edition of ammo catalog (ammunitionregister 1949 del I) and uses the same picture.

Kind regards
/John T.

John, the yellow AP I saw before was made in Germany. The grey one is declared to be Swiss made.

Holland certainly could have used the round in question but the color code here is Swedish for TP (I stand corrected by myself as I got confused) and it fits the whole situ.
So we need to see the color codes of the Dutch and preferably see a Dutch crate.
Before whe will have this, all available reference (including real specimen) points to Sweden only.

I have not yet seen convincing proof (like color coding in a Dutch manual, or a found case). As far as I am concerned, mainly wishful thinking. The Swedish source seems much more likely to me. I did hear about an existing Dutch manufactured 20x138B case (Hembrug) but I have not seen it and I do not know if the case has a projectile.

[quote=“EOD”]John, the yellow AP I saw before was made in Germany. The grey one is declared to be Swiss made.
.[/quote]
In such case there’s a difference between the two editions of manuals,
the 1949 one does number the shells

[/URL]

translation of Note 5):
Swiss ammo, Yellow projectile, marked with “HSS” around the waist. (sorry for my lack of proper nomenclature)
and point to Picture (3)

[quote=“EOD”]

Holland certainly could have used the round in question but the color code here is Swedish for TP (I stand corrected by myself as I got confused) and it fits the whole situ.
So we need to see the color codes of the Dutch and preferably see a Dutch crate.
Before we will have this, all available reference (including real specimen) points to Sweden only.[/quote]
Agree.

Cheers
/John

John, the 5 and 6 do refer to images #5 and #6 which are not on this page. When you check the next page (there it should be) and look up the images you will see 20x110 HS404 cartridges to which this applies.

Thank you all, so much!

Jason

Dear Sir
I beg to differ.

I have a number of reasons

  1. I speak Swedish as native language, thus I interpret the text differently.
  2. the page refers to 20mm Pvkan m/39 (Solothurn S18-1000) and Lvakan m/39 (Rheinmetall)
  3. The column labeled “Bild” means Picture in English (as Bild in German)
    The row with the Hispano- Suzia produced round have the number (3) in the picture column and the footnotes 5) and 6)
    I have never heard of a military manual where the footnotes on one page, where the footnotes does correspond with the the text below,
    should been interpreted as referring to illustrations for another weapon with different ammunition on another page.

And lastly
4. I do have copies of the contracts with Solothurn and Hispano- Suiza and the latter includes ammunition both HS 404 and Soloturn panserbuchse.
Re Rheinmetall Borsig, I only have the price and quantity totals.

the RhB contract included 143 000 rounds “Pauline Massiv” and
HSS should deliver 150 000 round AP-T and 20 000 Training rounds explicitly for the Solothurn.
It might be that RhB did produce the rounds for Hispano-Suzia as subcontractors, but both the contract and Swedish manuals say’s that Hispano Suiza did deliver 20mm 138B with the hotter load used in the Solothurn.

Kind Regards
John T

John, this is most interesting and thank you for the details as I never had a Swedish speaker clarifying this!

The Hispano connection to the 20x138B is entirely new to me (what does not mean much) and would deserve more study. The subject is most interesting.

The Swedish digital museum which has plenty of ammunition photos online does show several variants of the 20x138B as they were in Swedish service but none of the Swiss made ones.
Also I do not remember to have ever seen one in posession of a US collector or shooter (again, this may not mean much).
Do you (or anyone else) have such rounds maybe?