Can not find information about possible country/company where this cartridge was made.
Very cool headstamp. Did you find it in the field (ground)? Is it possibly something from the Baltic countries? Like Lithuania or Estonia?
It was found in Western Belarus (Grodno region). WW1 actions took place here and then WW2 actions. Often you can find cartridges from both wars on same place.
In 1913 the Baltic countries were still part of Russia.
The cartridge looks like a German 7.9 mm Patrone 88, but the headstamp is quite un-German in my view and definitely not German military.
In German military cartridges from 1905 use other type of bullets
Cartridges with this headstamp have been discussed on the Forum a number of times. As I recall no clear identification of the manufacturer has been made to date.
Thanks a lot. Come to forum only for answers on difficult questions. “If nothing helps”
Ivan: Bear in mind that the German army was still using this older form of 7.9 m/m bullet in their M1888 arms as late as 1916 or so, perhaps later. That isn’t to say that they would necessarily have used ammunition with this particular headstamp. Jack
As for me design of this headstamp similar with Austro-Hungary style. But I can not to find 100% coincidence. Maybe some questions must stay without answers till new discovery.
This headstamp has been the subject of some controversey. Both “Culots de Munitions Atlas, Tome II, Codes Non-Latins, Chiffres et Symboles,” by Jorion and Regenstreif, show the * 19 * 14 headstamp as being from Kragujevac, Serbia. Will Reuter, in a study of the 7.63 Mauser Pistol cartridge, shows the same headstamp on a cartridge of that caliber, and also identifies it as Serbian.
I no longer have my 7.9 collection to compare headstamps, but the signature feature of the headstamp shown by Mssr. Vasilievich, in my view, is the stick-figure “stars” or “asterick” as some people insist, with eight points. These same figures appear on a cartridge I have in 7.63 mm Mauser, a slight variation of the format in the the headstamp is * 1914 * with the stars at about the 10 o’clock and 2 o’clock position on the cartridge head. The design of the stars is essentially identical to the 7.9 x 57 cartridge headstamp shown above. I also have another 7.63 mm Mauser Pistol cartridge with 8-pointed stars almost identical, and cartridge characteristics identical to the 1914-date round I mention, but the headstamp is L.D.P. * * with the two stars being at about the 8 o’clock and 4 o’clock positions on the head. It is my view that the two cartridges came from the same factory. The L.D.P. is the mark of the company Louis Dieu, Négociant, 40, rue Meslay, Paris, France, Armes a Feu, Armes Blanches, Carouches, Poudres et Munitions. They are known to have made both the 7.63 x 25 mm Mauser cartridge and the 7.9 x57 mm rifle cartridge. The trademark was issue 38 December 1911, At Bruxelles, and is no. 46137, as recorded in the pages of “Marques de Fabrique et de Commerce, Bruxelles, Bruylant-Christopher & Cie. Éditeurs.”
With the anonymity of the headstamp, I cannot positively identify the 1914 headstamp, but I personally have long felt that it represents a product of the French Louis Dieu firm. The similarities and fact they made the 7.63 and 7.9 cartridges, seems too coincidental to be simply a coincidence.
Just my thoughts on this, for what they are worth.
Kragujevac Arsenal ?
As discussed before: mauser-headstamp
Yes, Kragujevac, but I have my doubts about that as I mentioned. I have seen no documentation for the origin of this cartridge headstamp, and still to me, it seems very close to cartridges from Louis Dieu of France. I have documentation that they produced ammunition with a headstamp very close to the one in question, but as I say, I cannot be positive because of the lack of documentation on the precise headstamp in question.
Perhaps someone can provide documentation to the Serbian connection that is mentioned in two works, as well as the referenced “mauser headstamp” thread mentioned above, but none of them citing any documented source for the information.
John, I would be interested to see that documentation on Louis Dieu production. It is my understanding that they only ever marketed ammunition produced for them by others, including France (SFM), Belgium (FN) and Germany (DWM). There is an SFM drawing containing writing about an order for “Louis Dieu, Paris”.
Louis Dieu & Cie of Paris are believed to be the representatives of DWM in France in the cWW1- cWW2 period. Packets of 8x60 cartridges (W36) produced by DWM in 1930 ("Q Q date codes) but with the packet marked “LD&Cie, loaded in France”. Other such LDP packets are known in a variety of calibers and all contained DWM cartridges.
Their hs did use stars mainly 3x5pt stars as per the well known drawing but also other combinations.
Maybe FN produced both the cases with 8pt stars for LDP and the hs above ?
WBD - I already gave the documentation for Louis Dieu “production” of ammunition. It is very possible they did not make their own cartridges. I only know they were assigned a headstamp. They used L.D.P. as their headstamp, as you know.
Regarding the anonymous headstamps mentioned, I am only going by the style of stars and numbers. I mentioned that I have my suspicions about the headstamp on the 7.9 in question, but am not at all positive.
It is quite possible that FN, or some other company, produced the headstamps for both LDP and whoever made the cartridge in question. My only reservation about that would be that 1914 began WWI, so any cartridge so dated would have been made either after hostilities began, or in the period before they started, which were troubled times.
I have nothing else to offer other than what I have already written. That is why I, too, asked if anyone has any documentation on that headstamp, especially tying it to Serbia.