Need help with some unknowns


#1

All,

I have a few unidentified items that I hope I can get some help with.


Cartridge #1 has a lead blt, copper primer slightly rounded base, with a blt dia of 11.22mm, case length 23.26 mm,rim dia of 12.62 mm, and case mouth approx. 11.18mm. The next photo is that of the base of the cartridge.

Cartridge #2 is similar:

It has a lead blt, copper primer, blt dia of 10.86 mm, case length of 24.44 mm, rim dia of 13.08 mm, approximate case mouth of 11.57 and no headstamp. The following photo is of the base.

Cartridge #3 is another pistol/revolver ctg. Flat nose lead blt (has a seam running down the side), rounded base, copper primer, blt dia of 10.95 mm, case length of 25.47 mm, approximate case mouth of 11.19 mm. Photo below.

A photo of the base.

Now a few rifle cartridges:
Cartridge #4 is a .303 British with a magnetic bullet, copper primer, 3 crimps at the neck, Blackened brass case, with headstamp DA(C with arrow) 1943 VII. What is the significance of the blackened case? Pic below.

Photo of base.

Cartridge #5 is a 7.92x57 with magnetic blt, magnetic primer (if it is a primer), primer has 4 stab crimp, and no headstamp. Photo of cartridge and base below.

Next photo is of two very similar cartridges. Upper cartridge (#6) has pointed soft point blt with magnetic jacket or core, 4 crimps at the nech, blt dia of 6.68 mm, case length of 61.78 mm, copper primer with black or dark purple pa, rim dia of 11.91 mm, approximate case mouth of 7.29 mm and no headstamp. Lower cartridge (#7) also has a soft point bullet, blt dia of 6.53 mm, case length of 62.18 mm, rim dia of 11.88 mm, approx. case mouth of 7.15 mm, a brass primer, and no headstamp.

Base of #6

Base of #7

Cartridge #8 has a FMJ, round nose, magnetic blt with a dia of 6.64 mm. The case length is 53.52 mm, rim dia of 13.39 mm, approx. case mouth of 7.39 mm. The case is plated brass with a headstamp of 1 21 29 F N. It has a copper primer with black or dark purple pa. If this is a 6.5 Dutch what is the significance of the plated case? Pic below.

Pic of base.

Cartrdige #10 has a FMJ, round nose blt, with a dia of 7.18 mm, case length of 67.34 mm, rim dia of 12.95 mm, and aapprox case mouth of 8.05 mm. No primer but 2 flash holes. Pic below.

Pic of the base.

Any help in identifying these would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Pat


#2

#5 is 7.92 x 57mm Czech made, clandestine viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3881


#3

#10 is a necked up version of the 6.5 x 68 mm or a necked down version of the 8 x 68 mm , loaded with a standard 7 mm (.284") bullet.
Most probably a wildcat


#4

Thanks Guys!

That’s two down and eight to go.

Pat


#5

Hi Pat,

1: .44 S&W American.

2: .44 S&W Russian.

3: .44 Evans Old Model.

4: It has been suggested that this is a match loading for the 1948 olympics but I don’t know if this is documented because I don’t have up to date information about this cartridge.

5: Made c. 1948 by Zbrojovka Brno, Závod Vlašim, Czechoslovakia. Noted for have been imported into the the US from Israel and likely made for the Operation Balak.

6-7: .256 Newton. Both looks like reloads made from original WCC cases. No. 6 may be loaded with a Newton Wire Point bullet (it can checked it with a magnet).

8: Ball cartridge No. 4 with reduced load used by the Colonial Army for short range/guard.

10: Can you confirm its dimensions?

Regards,

Fede


#6

Fede,

Dimensions on #10 are correct.

You mentioned original WCC cases for #s 6 and 7 as .256 Newton. Both rounds have no headstamp? Did WCC ( I assume you mean Western Cartridge Company) make undheadstamped .256 Newton cases? If so during what time period?

The bullet on #6 will take a magnet but it does not look like a wirepoint (at least not one that I have seen).

The .303 as a possible match round for the 1948 Olympics. I guess they could be using recovered cases still (hs has 1943). Has the blackened case been used before to indicate a match round? I have only ever seen the bands around the case.

Thanks for your help.

Pat


#7

Cartridge # 8 is indeed a 6,5mm Dutch Mannlicher “Scherpe Patroon Nr. 4”, a guard load for the Dutch East Indies Army. Nice specimen!


#8

Pat, the early Newton cases were made by Western Cartridge Co. without a headstamp. These were first advertised in 1914 and available until the US entered the war and the company ceased operations. These unheadstamped cases can also be found in post-war boxes with the new “Chas. Newton Rifle Corp.” designation used when the company resumed operations in 1919. I assume that these were remnants of the early production.

Number 10 looks like a very interesting case type. I would appreciate if you can include dimensions of the head, shoulder, body length, neck length and rim thickness.

Regards,

Fede


#9

Fede,

Thanks for the information on the early .256 Newtons! I had no idea.

As for more dimensional data on #10. I am away from my collection till Friday. and will post then.

Pat


#10

Fede,

Here is the additional data you wanted on #10:

Head 3.45 mm

Head diameter 13.18 mm

Shoulder 12.10 mm

Body length 51.82 mm

Neck length 7.74 mm

Rim thickness 1.38 mm

Hope this helps. I appreciate for experience and insight.

Pat


#11

Pat, thanks for the additional measurements. The parent case would be the 6.5 x 68 by RWS but I’m not aware of examples of this caliber without a headstamp. You may have found an unreported 7 x 68 case type or maybe a 6.5 x 68 case without a headstamp that was fitted with a 7 mm bullet. In either case, it would be very interesting, but I’m inclined to believe in the first option. Regards, Fede.


#12

There were several RWS experimental cases leading up to the 6.5x68/6.5x68R in the 1936/37 period. There was a 6.5x66, 7x64 and a 7x68 (RWS factory drawing 21/12/37) which is listed in the ECRA Data viewer. An example (from the ECRA German #460 bulletin) has no hs and appears very close to the one shown here.


#13

WBD,

Is that a drawing or photo you are referring to? Either way could you post it to the forum?

Thanks
Pat


#14

It’s a DAG drawing SK553 of a 7x68 Chamber and Chamber tool. It’s attached to the calibre 7x68 RWS Magnum in the ECRA Data Viewer XCR Code “07 068 BGC 040”. The viewer and the bulletin can both be obtained from the ECRA.

The dimensions for the example shown are so close to yours I would say it is the same cartridge - yours appears to have an old military RN 7x57 Mauser bullet added to the empty case.