Need Info on two German WWII 9mm Boxes


#1

I recently obtained a couple of interesting boxes. The first contains emp copperwash steel rounds with black mE bullets with the headstamp “emp St 4 41”. I believe the blue triangle on the box top translates to something like “Only For Training”. Would someone correct my bad German because my handy “BING translator” won’t handle the last word.

The next box has an early dou label from 1941, but I need help on the meaning of the white diamond shape label. This label is folded slightly on the photo and reads “L.Ma.” and “Hr.”

Translations or information appreciated.

Cheers,

Lew


#2

Lew: I think “Only for training purposes” would work OK. Jack


#3

Hi Lew,

L.Ma Hr.

Luft Munitionsanstallt Höfer.

Rgds
Dutch


#4

Dutch, I believe this identifies it as ammunition issued by the Air Force/Luftwaffen but what is the translation of “Munitionsanstallt Höfer”. This is still beyond my poor “BING” translator, which was clearly not created by a cartridge collector.

Thanks for the help!

Lew


#5

Hi Lew,

this might be an interesting link:

translate.googleusercontent.com/ … kV1fvjXWwA

cheers
René


#6

Lew,

Munitionsanstalt means a ammunition plant. ( Luftwaffe,Marine,Heer )
They formed the parent facilities for resupply the troops
and for the production, storage and management of all types
of ammunition were responsible.

451kr.


#7

Anstalt is not exactly a plant or factory, which would indicate manufacture there, but more general in this context, like a facility or installation, such as a storage or distribution warehouse or depot. One dictionary definition is “an institution (of any kind, in particular a prison or mental hospital).” So perhaps L.Ma. = Luftwaffe ammunition depot? Hofer means yard or court, maybe field (possibly airfield?), but could also be someone’s name, or perhaps a location, such as a city. There is a Hofer municipality in the district of Celle, in Lower Saxony, Germany.


#8

In this case, Höfer is the name of the town. It is aprox 20 KM north-east of Celle or 50 KM north-east of Hannover.


#9

Thanks everyone! I dug through my old notes and photos and found I had a photo of a similar box (dou.122 L.41) with the same diamond shape label. Interesting that both were dou production.

Has anyone seen this white diamond label on any other 9x19mm boxes?

Does it occur in other caliber ammunition? Since dutch identified it, I assume it occurs on 7.62M.

The note on the photo agrees with dutch’s post, except it does not identify the facility indicated by “Hr.”

Cheers,
Lew


#10

I made a post on another dou box with that exact label on it:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8666&p=61734&hilit=label#p61734
Did get a response from Phil Butler though, same conclusions as in your case/box, Lew.
Soren


#11

Munitionsanstalt is best translated as ammunition depot. (literally it is ammunition establishment)

The ammunition factories delivered their output to these ammunition depots. These in turn assembled ammunition trains (train in the railway sense) which usually transported a pre-defined collection of different ammunition types according to typical needs of front line troops.

A Munitionsanstalt at the same time acted as a filling plant for grenades etc.


#12

Whilst the German Term “Munitions-Train” MAY refer to Railroad trains, during WW II, BUT the term derives from the earlier Wagon-Train type of transport, (also still in use in WW II…the German Army still used Horse-drawn vehicles as late as 1941)

WW I is replete with ID markings such as “Train-Batallion” ( referring to the Artillery and other ammuntion supply columns, virtually all “Horse drawn”…Motor vehicles only became widespread in the later years of WW I.

The Equivalent English/US term would be simply, “Supply Column” or “Transport Corps” (US) or “Service Corps” ( Britain).

The term “Train” ( from the Latin Traherethrough the Italian and French "Trainare"/“Trainer” meaning “to Draw along” dates back to the Middle Ages…hence “Baggage train” ( the effects and camp followers of any medieval army…see “Henry V” for details of usage.). The Prussians, great admirers of the French Enlightenment, adopted the word to distinguish the Supply Waggons from the Fighting Troops.

Of course in English, French etc, the Term Train was eventually affixed to the “Locomotive Wagon Train” ( ie, Railroad/way train)…But German used its own term “Der Zug” ( relating to the Rails, not the waggons)…Funny how each language can use different words for the same thing…

In the German Supply System, Supplies (Arms, Ammunition, etc) were delivered by the Factories to the Regional Depots (“anstalten”) for accumulation, checking,repacking if necessary, and onward dispatch to individual Units or Military groupings. Most Anstalten were served by Railway spurs, as this hastened delivery from Factory to Depot; but distribution was mostly done by Road vehilce; of course, during the Russian Campaign, all means of transport were used ( including Horse drawn) to get ammunition to the troops.

Never ( almost?) were supplies passed directly from Factory to Troops, not even in the last days of WW II in 1945.

The Question of the German Interaction of Railways with Troop and Supply Movements goes back to pre-Franco Prussian War ( 1870) times, when Friedrich Krupp ( the Cannon King…but also Locomotive King) used to check the Military and Civilian Timetables of the various State Railways in the German States, to ensure they were consistent and safe…he did it as a hobby…and the German High Command thanked him for it in the 1870 war, where rail was used to shift large numbers of Troops and Guns to the French Border in an orderly and timely fashion. Similar accuracy also aided the GHC in 1914, both in the west and the east. By the time of the Formation of the unified Reichsbahn
in the early 1920s, ( amalgamating all the former indivdual state railways) the scene was set for a well co-ordinated rail transport system across greater Germany ( incl. Austria and Czechoslovakia) so that by 1939, the railroads could carry the brunt of the load to the behind the lines areas of the war, and allow Motor transport to carry the load to the troops.

This was especially important in Russia, where Railways were the only sure means of transport, the roads being Poor and few. The German Army maintained a substantial “Rail division” handling conversion of Foreign Rollingstock, rebuilding and re-gauging of track in Russia ( Russian track was 5’0", whilst German was 4’8,5";) also Russian rolling stock had Automatic Janney couplers, whilst the German equipment still had the Hook and Adjustable Shackle type couplers.The war even led to improvements in Locomotive efficiency, with Fully welded boilers, Condenser Tenders to save water (for Russia) heated and insulated Cabs (Russia again) and a unified “kriegslok” ( 42, and 50 series) design which could be turned out in thousands of examples, to make up for losses from air-raids etc. They were so good that the Soviets converted captured ones to 5-foot gauge, and they were still in use into the 1980s; I saw several sidelined ones in the Czech Republic in 1993…they had been used on dedicated Warsaw Pact 5 foot lines from Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany etc to the Soviet Union…all part of the Warsaw Pact Plan for a rapid transit to Europe if needed. ( of course, once close to Western Europe, they would have to “change trains” to utilize the standard 4’8,5’" tracks of the west.

Regards,
Doc AV
Railway History aficionado as well as Cartridge collector.


#13

Doc: Perhaps relevant here on the evolution of transport terminology: in the American Civil War the term “train” generally meant wagon trains; a train of cars pulled by a steam locomotive on metal tracks was usually referred to as “the cars.” Jack


#14

The German term I was referring to is “Munitionszug”. The capacity of one railway car was considered 10 metric tons in WW1 and 15 metric tons in WW2. I did not delve deeper into this.
In the museum at Ingolstadt there is a dawing from WW1 (or shortly thereafter) actually showing freight trains and boasting how many Munitionszüge (ammunition trains) had been loaded with the output of Bavarian factories.
My original remark was intended to make clear that, in this ammunition context, I did not mean “explosive train”. But as you pointed out, there was also the German word “Train” in a logistics context.


#15

DocAV, in case you are interested in the railway aspect of this:

A Munitionszug for small arms ammunition (as of 1912) had 8 freight and one passenger car. It was manned by 1 sergeant and 6 enlisted men.
It carried 1956 cases of rifle ammunition (2.2 mio rounds), 10 cases of revolver ammunition and 3 cases of pistol ammunition. Altogether roughly 70 metric tons.
In peacetime, the ammunition for 82 trains was kept ready for mobilization, distributed among 14 depots.


#16

Lew, fwiw,

I recently received an identical box to yours, but with some storage issues (got damp somewhere along the way). Label and contents are the same, as well as the ‘nur für Übungszwecke’ overlabel.