New M90/M95 clip marking found!


#1

A new clip marking for the Steyr Mannlicher M90 & M95 has been found, an L within a circle.
I’m waiting for permission from the photographer at Gunboards so I can’t post an image of it yet or add the image to the Steyr Clips list but I’m hoping to do so soon.

In the meantime I’m going to try to dig up some information on this new stamp. Nothing that I have so far shows just an L, only the LP for La Precisa, but I’ve only dug through a few sites. If anyone has any ideas then please let me know, thanks!

http://sites.google.com/site/steyrclips/


#2

OK, I’m starting to think the L in circle may be Lignose A.-G., Berlin, Germany. I’m basing this on a much more cursive L found on pinfire headstamps.

Seems like Lorenz was likely sold before this ammunition was made and he went on to Daimler.

It’s also possible that it’s Lindener Zündhütchen-und Thonwarenfabrik, Hannover, Germany. I found this information from a German site with history on the area, but it gets a bit confusing thanks to the translation:

[quote]The Linden primer and Thonwarenfabrik was by Johann Georg Heinrich Egestorff (1802-1868) founded in 1861 at Lindener Berg. After Egestorffs death in 1868 the company by his son Johann Friedrich August Buresch was conducted (1821-1885). He was Privy Councillor of Commerce and in 1856 married George Egestorffs daughter Georgina Wilhelmina (1836-1904). In 1872 he was named along with his brother Johann Georg Friedrich Adolph Hurtzig (1825-1897), short Fritz, a member of the Board of the newly created George Egestorff salt Werke AG. From 1874 until his death on 7th October 1885 he was president of the Chamber of Commerce. Friedrich Buresch also owned the 1868 built and preserved villa. In the From-Old-Allee 4 to 6

The factory was located at the Hamelin Road (now Hanomagstraße / Bornumer / Am Ihlpohl), now located on the site allotments. One primer set, metal cartridges and clays ago for export to England. In 1861, the company set up in the yard of their brick in Empelde at Hanover a branch operation. In 1879 the company was converted into a public limited company. In 1914, the factory because of the danger, the products installed on a free field according Empelde. During World War I made it even explosives and ammunition, exclusively for the military.

In 1921, a second administration building HANOMAG AG was built on the site of the former Zündhütchenfabrik. 1925 took over the operation of the Dynamit Nobel AG, but already 1928, Dynamit Nobel AG stopped the work.

1938 witnessed in the general rearmament in Germany to resume operation. Now been made squibs and detonators and cartridges and shells for anti-aircraft, anti-tank and infantry ammunition. In that time, the factory in Empelde became one of the largest defense companies in the field of Armaments Command Hanover. In 1944, about 3,800 workers were employed. Many foreign and forced laborers were employed in the local camps were 1,500 people housed. With the end of the war came the closure of Empelder work, part of the production facilities were dismantled and the factory was closed.

In 1983, the surviving bunkers and buildings were demolished on the grounds of the park was living at the lake. Only when even residential buildings were built and inhabited by the powerful tests of the soil contamination is known. The Hannover region and the city Ronnenberg / Empelde then started with the soil remediation. 1999 has been named as interim state that the ordnance disposal service has rescued about six tons of ammunition and explosives. Today, two more historic buildings are on the northern edge of the former plant site, an administrative building that is used by a company and a residential building. [/quote]

However, at this point I’m completely speculating with no hard evidence to be found. :|


#3

The only chargers I have marked with an ‘L’ are one for the M’88 rifle and a three lug M’98.

As for who made them, I haven’t a clue. They’re both filed under ‘Germany’ but in the ‘unknown’ folder.

Peter


#4

Oh wow, that’s the exact same L as on the Austrian clip!
Dang, too bad we don’t know the manufacturer, the mystery would be solved. ^_^

However, it is a clue. Thanks enfield56!


#5

Peter, here’s a bit more info, but I don’t know if it’s helpful.

In a book online (Firearms, the Law and Forensic Ballistics) I found references to Lignose Sprengstoff Werk and the German ordinance codes kru, kry kun & kvu for difference locations. the ordinance codes probably don’t help any (I’ll keep researching those) but Lignose Sprengstoff Werk led me to a German Wikipedia page about the Mining Scheme, whereby arms companies were shareholders in supposed mining companies in order to hide their breaking of the Treaty of Versailles.

This sets ups a very tenuous link to Lignose, since they were in operation pre-WWI and into WWII. It’s sketchy at best though.

There’s a book titled “Schoenebeck Explosives Plant, Lignose Sprengstoff Werke, GmbH, B.” from 1947 by the Oil Division of the United States Strategic Bombing Survey, but even if a print copy could be found I doubt it would have any useful information.

–edit–

Found another site with ordinance codes contradicting the ones in the book, which isn’t surprising. It shows krd as "Lignose AG, Werk Kriewald (renamed [‘lt.8.Nachtrag’] ‘Sprengstoffwerke Oberschlesien Gmbh’ in c. 1943) ", kru as “Lignose Sprengstoffwerke GmbH, Kruppamuehle plant”, kry as “F.A. Sening, Hamburg, sometimes misread as ‘kru’”, kun as “Eisfeld GmbH, Werk Kunigunde” and kvu as “Rudolf Fissler KG, Idar-Oberstein”.

I’ll use those as references and keep hunting.


#6

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz in Karlsruhe first used “L” on Patronen 88 (from January 1889) and switched to “DM” in December 1893. In 1896 it became part of DWM. Lorenz in turn had bought it from Ehrmann.
The L on the cartridges looks very much like the L on enfield56’s photographs. It could be Lorenz.


#7

Ah, thanks JPeelen! I was just reading about Loewe and DWM so wondered if it could be DM, Lorenz. It does make me wonder about the '98 stripper clip using the L stamping. DWM seems to have gone through a lot of name changed between the wars so maybe it was resurrected for a brief period?


#8

Windisch et al, in the chapter on “Patronenrahmen und Ladestreifen” in their book “Von der Patrone 88 zur Patrone S”, refer to the mark “L” being on M.88 clips from Ludwig Lowe of Berlin.

JJE


#9

Damn, my text regarding Lignose disappeared. So another try:

Lignose entered the small arms business only after WW1 when diversification became fashionable.

Lignose, together with Dynamit AG and WASAG was one of the three companies that controlled the German blasting market. Their largest commercial customers were coal mines. So it is totally natural that they owned shaores of coal mining companies. Nothing clandestine here. Lignose, at home in Oberschlesien (Upper Silesia), concentrated on the coal mines in this area.
The name Lignose comes from the attempt to copy dynamite by using sawdust in place of kieselgur.

Off topic I might add the WW2 codes for Lingnose plants (which reflect the actual location as was done for all explosives manufacturers) were:
kwd - Kriewald
kru - Kruppamühle
rst - Reichenstein
sbk - Schönebeck
Blasting caps from Lignose were marked L.
The plant at Schönebeck should not be confused with the ammunition manufacturer (formerly S&B, after 1933 taken over by Rheinmetall from Fritz Mandl). Kunigunde was not a Lignose plant. All other codes you mention are, frankly, due to the fondness of Allied intelligence officers of sloppy spelling and have nothing to do with Lignose.


#10

[quote=“JJE”]Windisch et al, in the chapter on “Patronenrahmen und Ladestreifen” in their book “Von der Patrone 88 zur Patrone S”, refer to the mark “L” being on M.88 clips from Ludwig Lowe of Berlin.

JJE[/quote]

Correct, it was written from a notice of the GPK.

Kind regards
Dutch


#11

[quote=“dutch”]

Correct, it was written from a notice of the GPK.

Kind regards

Dutch[/quote]

Dutch,

I have lots of chargers, both M’88 and M’98 that have to live in the unidentified folder, due to a shortage of information. I’m sure many of them were from contractors, probably in small workshops, during the period 1914-1918.

Does your GPK notice list other manufacturers against a marking?

Happy collecting,

Peter


#12

Peter

In the same book, Windisch et al give a number of abbreviations and other marks from clips and chargers. I have listed them below, but for the most part they give no indication of their source (M.04 is the one piece charger for the K.98):

B in circle … Boehme & Co, Minden (M.98)
D… Munitionsfabrik Dresden…(M.88, M.98, M.04)
DM… Deutsche Waffen- & Munitionsfabrik, Karlsruhe…(M.98, M.04)
E&G… Ehrich & Graetz, Berlin…(M.98)
G… Golliasch & Co, Berlin…(M.88)
GM… Metallwerke Göggl, München-Moosach…(M.98)
GWK… Greist-Werke GmbH, Kaiserslautern…(M.98)
I… Munitionsfabrik Spandau…(M.88, M.98, M.04)
J… Hauptlaboratorium Ingolstadt…(M.88, M.98, M.04)
L… Ludwig Lowe, Berlin…(M.88)
L&G… Lauckner & Günther, Marienberg…(M.98)
M… Josef Meiler, München…(M.98)
M&M… Munitionsmaterial & Metallwerke Hindrichs-Auffermann AG, Bremen…(M.88, M.98)
O… Lenz…(M.88)
P… Püttman & Co, Barmen…(M.88)
PMF (logo)… Pulver-und Munitionsfabrik, Dachau…(M.98)
R in circle… Ruberg & Renner, Hagen
S… Schwartz, Cassel…(M.88)
S-over-H (logo)… Siemens & Halske, Berlin…(M.88, M.98, M.04)
V… Wagner, Berlin…(M.88, M.98)
W… Weiss, Berlin…(M.88)
WBS (logo)… Wilhelm Baier, Stockdorf…(M.98)
X… Fischer & Rossmann, Berlin…(M.88)
==… Hirsch, Cassel…(M.88, M.98, M.04)

JJE


#13

Guys,
This is some fantastic information. I want to thank you all for sharing it with me.

I’ll put L in a circle as Ludwig Loewe & Company, Berlin, Germany. Merged in 1896 with Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik (DM), Karlsruhe, Baden, Germany to form Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken Aktien-Gesellschaft (DWM).


#14

@ JJE

The company Wagner (V) was in Cassel, not Berlin.
And Lauckner & Günther, Marienberg made also Ladestreifen o.F. (04)

Rgds
Dutch


#15

Good news! The owner of the Loewe clip gave me permission to use his image so I’ve added it to the list.